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| chris21 3/06/2004 01:21:02 [ report this post ] |
 Subject: Advance caro kan questionMessage: Can someone tell me a typical line after the following please? 1.e4 c6 2.d4 d5 3.e5 c5... I'm changing to the advance against the caro kan and have come across this third move from black over the board a couple of times but none of my books cover it. Thanks:) |
| skeeterss0 3/06/2004 02:19:19 [ report this post ] | Starting Out: the caro-kann Message: from the above book bye Joe Gallagher: 4. dxc5, e6 5. Be3, Nh6 6. c3, Nf5 7. Bd4, Nxd4 8. cxd4, b6 9. Bb5+, Bd7 10. Bxd7+, Nxd7 11. cxb6, Qxb6 The book mentions that white has a 56% success rate with 4. dxc5 the stat is from 2002 MegaBase from ChessBase |
| premium_steve 3/06/2004 07:24:43 [ report this post ] | Message: i played 4.c4 in a tournament game a couple of weekends ago. if you can get familiar with that, you might be able to take some people off guard. i'm pretty sure it's playable... |
| anaxagoras 3/06/2004 14:08:21 [ report this post ] | Message: Here's what Gallagher says about the position reached after 11...Qxb6: "It may look as if White is a pawn up for not much but the real question is, in fact, if he can survive the next few moves unscathed. Black threatens to take on b2. The obvious move is Qd2, but after 12...Rb8 13 b3 (what else?) Black has the tactical shot 13...Nxe5!, the point being that after 14 dxe5 Bb4 15 Nc3 Black can now play 15...d4 with the better game. White probably should play 12 b3 but after 12...Bb4+ he will have to play 13 Kf1. I would prefer Black in this position. "We have, in fact, just rewritten chess theory as most sources claim that White is doing well after 9 Bb5+. Don't forget, though, that there are still alternatives that lead to a roughly equal game." |
| alexamenos 3/13/2004 14:29:04 [ report this post ] | Why not Message: 4. dxc5, e6 5. Be3, Nh6 6. Bxh6....? It seems to me that Black's K/side mess is pretty good for white.... |
| macheide 3/13/2004 17:32:13 [ report this post ] | Just a question? Message: What's wrong with 3...Bf5? In the Caro-Kann one can: a) Develop the queen bishop without problem, but... b) Can counterpunch the center in 2 moves: 1...c6 and a later ?...c5. In the French one can: a) Counterpunch the center in 1 move: ?...c5, but: b) It is difficult to movilize the queen bishop. In the variation I'm seeing above, black has the worst of the two worlds, so, why not 3...Bf5 first? Most of my openings theory knowledge dates from the 4 volume treatise by the late GM L�dek Pachman, that is, from the paleozoic era. Am I missing something?. I used to play the Caro-Kann, so any comment will be welcomed. Thanks in advance, Andr�s macheide |
| atrifix 3/13/2004 19:32:13 [ report this post ] | Message: Be3 and Bxh6 is not consistent. If White is going to give back the pawn, he should do it right away and not lose a tempo on the Be3-xh6 maneuver. After Bxh6 gxh6, White's position really isn't that great: Black has doubled and isolated h-pawns, but he also has the open g-file and two bishops to compensate him and White cannot hold onto the pawn on c5. The doubled and isolated h-pawns aren't really as weak as they may seem. Nothing is wrong with 3... Bf5, though. If I am not mistaken, 3... Bf5 is still far and away the main line after 3. e5. The point of 3... c5 is that Black often finds it extremely difficult to get this move in after 3... Bf5, and also White is forced to take the pawn on c5, which is not the case in the French. The positions which arrive after 3... Bf5 are usually fundamentally different from the positions after 3... c5 (for example, 3... Bf5 4. g4 Bg6 5. h4 h6 6. e6!?). As a matter of personal preference, I would rather play the 3... c5 lines, but then I may be biased because I am a French player. |
| macheide 3/13/2004 19:57:24 [ report this post ] | atrifix Message: Dear friend, Thanks for the information, but after 4.g4 Be4! (to protect the d1-h5 diagonal) 5.f3 Bg6, 6.h4 h5, 7.e6 Qd6, 8.exf7+ Bxf7 (Alekhine) or 7.Bd3 Bxd3, 8.Qxd3 e6 and black has no problems. Well, maybe, as in all, choosing between 3...c5 and my favourite 3...Bf5 is a matter af tastes. Thanks a lot, Andr�s, macheide |
| atrifix 3/13/2004 21:39:31 [ report this post ] | Well Message: I am not an expert on the Caro-Kann, so I'll leave the difficult theory for other players :) 3... c5 is a relatively new line that is growing in popularity. It first gained prominence when Botvinnik used it in his return match with Tal in 1961, but didn't really catch on until the 1980s. However, I don't think it has even come close to overtaking 3... Bf5 yet. A few words on 3... Bf5: I don't think that 4. g4 is best, even though it is interesting; 4. Nc3 or 4. Nf3 set Black with more problems. What I meant to illustrate is that it is not so clear that developing the bishop on f5 favors Black as opposed to leaving it on c8, since it can no longer defend the queenside and can be treated as an object of attack on the kingside. One would imagine that the development of the bishop would favor Black, but it is not so clear--ideally Black would like to have his bishop on g4, but you don't get something for nothing. All in all, I would rather play 3... c5, but most Caro players would prefer 3... Bf5. |
| peppe_l 3/14/2004 04:00:52 [ report this post ] | 4.g4!? Message: 4...Be4 5.f3 Bg6 6.h4?! h5! =/+ After 7.Bd3 Bxd3 8.Qd3 e6 playing g5 leads to a magnificent position for Black, who has managed to close kingside and therefore has pretty much free hands for his usual queenside counterplay. Playing gxh5 gives h-file for Black and leaves h4-pawn weak... IMO 6.e6!? looks better, although after 6...Qd6!? 7.exf7+ Bxf7 Black has lots of counterplay. The reason 6.e6!? looks better than 7.e6 is IMO pawn in h4 favours Black, for example compared to 6.e6!? lines after 7.e6 Qd6 8.exf7+ Bxf7 annoying Qg3+ is threatened, and one cannot say White has gained anything by playing pseudo-agressive 6.h4?! |
| macheide 3/14/2004 11:59:44 [ report this post ] | peppe_| Message: Dear friend, Thanks for the analysis. It is very interesting. I'm beginning to feel tempted to play the Caro again, :) In the last years mi repertoire with black against 1.e4 has been very limitated: The Sicilian Defense (that I love), particularily the Acelerated Dragon. I used to play with gusto another variations of the Sicilian, but nowadays, one has to be very well prepared and do not, repeat, do not make experiments in the opening. I like the Pelikan-Sveshnikov-Kalashnikov complex a lot, but... just look at my actual game with black against evian: it is the kind of positions for which IM Jeremy Silman recommends: "Stay away as far as the board as possible so that the spectarors don't be aware that you are the owner of such a horrible position", (I love Silman's eloquency), :))) The moral is: 1. Lazy or not, one needs to study the modern openings theory. 2. If one wants to make experiments against such a high caliber players as evian, please, probe them in your "personal laboratory" before use them in a real game. Otherwise, the punishment will be severe and fast. Your Mexican friend, Andr�s macheide Post scritpum: �Viva Finlandia!, The land of the great Linus Torvalds, creator of LINUX! |
| anaxagoras 3/14/2004 14:51:18 [ report this post ] | Message: Also, as mentioned in another thread recently... If Black plays 3...Bf5, it is a mistake for White to play g4 before Black plays e6. For example: 1 e5 c6 2 d4 d5 3 e5 Bf5 4 Nc3 Qb6 5 g4?! Bd7! and White's pawn on g4 looks very, very stupid. Also, don't think that one can "develop the queen's bishop without problems" in the caro kann. After e6, the whole point of the g4 advance is to create positional weaknesses in Black's position by chasing the QB all over the place. It's caused enough problems for 3...c5 to be a serious alternative to 3...Bf5, which can lead to highly theoretical lines after 4 Nc3 e6 5 g4 |
| macheide 3/14/2004 15:17:40 [ report this post ] | anaxagoras Message: My friend, I agree with your first paragraph. About the second, when I said "develop the queen's bishop whitout problems", I made a generalization, based in the majority of the circumstances. In the same vein, I would be more specific about to the Frech when I said: "it is difficult to movilize the queen's bishop". There are as you know many circumstances in wich black applies the scheme: ...b6->...Ba6, with the queen knight in its original square, trying to change its queen's "bad" bishop for white's "good" one. If white changes in a6->...Nxa6, giving extra support to the ...c5. When one discusses about openings, one must be conscious that there are a lot of counterexamples that refute the na�ve main purpose of the opening in question. Your friend, Andr�s macheide |
| loreta 3/14/2004 22:17:10 [ report this post ] | My 2 cents... Message: IMHO, 3.g4!? doesn't give much to White. After 4...Be4 5.f3 Bg6 I could prefer 6. e6!? or 6. Ne2 as 6. h4!? donesn't harm Black ... 6. ... h5! |
| loreta 5/18/2004 22:23:13 [ report this post ] | that's happened Message: I've to play against it (4.g4!?) It would be seen what experience I'd get. |
| anaxagoras 5/20/2004 10:30:40 [ report this post ] | Message: loreta, you have the move order wrong. 1 e4 c6 2 d4 d5 3 e5 Bf5 4 Nc3 e6 5 g4!? and Be4 is prevented. |
| loreta 5/20/2004 22:25:20 [ report this post ] | NO Message: I play against variation 1 e4 c6 2 d4 d5 3 e5 Bf5 4 g4!? Be4 5. f3 and it has in my mind when wrote these messages.... |
| anaxagoras 5/21/2004 09:42:44 [ report this post ] | Message: but your move order is still incorrect because 4 Nc3 is a big *improvement* over your 4 g4?! Bd7!... Now tell me what your g pawn is doing way out there? |
| loreta 5/23/2004 00:20:01 [ report this post ] | :-) misunderstanding? Message: anaxagoras, I play Black :-) As White I as ussually play Nc3 variations (1.e4 c6 2.d4 d5 3.Nc3) [but, sometimes, others as well] |
| anaxagoras 5/23/2004 10:08:10 [ report this post ] | Message: I play the black side of the caro kann as well! ;-) I don't venture 1 e4 very often, but if I'm on the white side of the ck I can't help myself from attacking lines like 4 Nc3... 5 g4..., it's just not what someone wants to deal with when he plays 1...c6. Consequently, from the black side, after 1 e4 c6 2 d4 d5 3 e5 Bf5 4 Nc3 I play the sideline 4...Qb6, then if 5 g4?! Bd7! |
| migchess20 5/27/2004 08:35:19 [ report this post ] | A more opinion. Message: I consider that in the advance of c5 in the aperture carokhan this it being transferred to the French opening, therefore we must study the French defense in the line: 1.e4, e6 2.d4, d5 3.e5, c5 . we observe that the white side must so long exert the attack by the side of king Migches20 |
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