Chess Forum
[ mod this thread ] << - < - > - >>
| From | Message |
| mary875 4/09/2004 03:22:01 [ report this post ] |
 Subject: Why some players start stalling when losing?Message: ... I just don't get the point!!!!! Recently I had some games where my opponents played quite fast (a move a day, or more) until they were in a clear losing position. Then they just started to play at the latest possible moment (even so they would still be online). I know they can do that since they are in the time limit: it's totally fair, but I just don't understand the reasons... Why not just to resign, or at least, continue playing at 'normal' pace? Regards, Yannick |
| bigkev 4/09/2004 04:00:52 [ report this post ] | Longest Winning Streak? Message: Perhaps the player is trying to get a new PB on their longest winning streak. Once they lose a game then they will probably resign a whole bunch of losing positions and get a new PB on a losing streak :) Just an idea. |
| mary875 4/09/2004 04:31:32 [ report this post ] | Could be, Message: but that's not really that important a characteristic, IMHO! And if they stall lost games to boost it, it is even more meaningless;) ... |
| snake_man 4/09/2004 05:10:46 [ report this post ] | another possibility... Message: might be that they are trying to find that one move that might turn the game around and are simply taking more time analizing the board. I know that I slow down when I start to lose, and this would explain their on-line status as well... |
| philaretus 4/09/2004 06:25:27 [ report this post ] | Gamesmanship Message: There are several reasons why players behave in the way mar875 describes: (1) Delaying indefinitely the end of the game means delaying indefinitely the loss of rating-points. (2) In the meantime there's the hope that you might get fed up with a game that has already lasted a year, and resign in disgust, especially if you are much lower-rated, and it wouldn't cost you much. (3) Your impatience may lead you to make ill-considered moves, and give him a chance to escape with a draw. There is an opposite tactic, in a favourable position, of speeding up play, making moves almost in real-time. This may even be accompanied by comments to the effect of :"Move faster!". The idea, of course, is to try to hustle you into making ill-considered moves. Such tactics are commonest among the highest-rated players, who hate losing most of all. |
| nivag18 4/09/2004 06:32:08 [ report this post ] | Philaretus, Message: Comments like "Move faster" strike me as very poor sportsmanship and is the type of behavior one is likely to encounter at sites like Yahoo, not Gameknot.com... the way I see it anyway |
| honololou 4/09/2004 09:42:06 [ report this post ] | for what its worth� Message: I think snake_man is correct. When I'm faced with a difficult or losing position, I take more time in the hopes that I'll find the "miracle" move. The fact that I haven't yet found one has not deterred me. |
| philaretus 4/09/2004 10:10:54 [ report this post ] | nivag18 Message: I've had that exact comment made to me on GameKnot. Later on, when I challenged the same player to another game, 3 days per move, he replied that he would only accept a challenge at 5 days per move. |
| brobishkin 4/09/2004 12:18:37 [ report this post ] | Delay of game... Message: I think the reasons stated by "philaretus" are the most accurate... I have had many folks here on game knot delay the game in a losing position... I know it's good practice to play the endgame (which is the least studied part of the game), but after a while you will see that no matter how hard you try to find the saving move, it simply doesn't exist... People who play the delay tactic are simply trying to rob the victory... And that is simply wrong... Most of the times they simply just lose... |
| chessnovice 4/09/2004 14:33:54 [ report this post ] | ... Message: I personally notice that I do this, too. But not on purpose, mind you! I feel that when I'm in a losing position, it takes longer for me to try to find a move that I think can get me out of that situation. |
| anaxagoras 4/09/2004 18:20:08 [ report this post ] | Message: snake man is correct. I start to look really hard for ways to save myself, and that's time consuming. |
| thugette_babe 4/09/2004 21:35:41 [ report this post ] | hmm... Message: well when I see that I'm in a bad position, I'm really unmotivated to play and too stubborn to give up. I know this is annoying to my opponents AND TO ME! but sometimes I just can't help it. I usually always give up anyway cuz its too painful to look at a useless position for too long, or I just let the game time out, which takes only around a day to two to do so. |
| ccmcacollister 4/10/2004 13:12:59 [ report this post ] | T-babe, I understand ... Message: where you are coming from. It can be painful to look at some of our games.(me too) But I think if you are able to come about and Resign those, rather than time-out some, believe you will gaiin more respect from opponent's & "spectators" of your results, both, simply because it IS a hard thing to do. IMO.A hearty Congrats! never hurts, in fact can even make You (Me) feel better afterward. Or a GG ! (good game) (or gg - if it was a real heartbreaker to me :) Best Chess to You, Craig A.C. |
| peppe_l 4/11/2004 02:56:28 [ report this post ] | IMO Message: It is better to spend lots of time from the beginning of the game to AVOID getting to lost position than seeking a miracle move _after_ getting to lost position :-) When it comes to rules & etiquette IMO taking lots of time for a move is always ok according to the rules and usually ok according to the etiquette, as long as the purpose is good - eg seeking a miracle move! :-) Personally I am against stalling the game on purpose because of reasons like ratings or vengeance... |
| ccmcacollister 4/11/2004 07:18:45 [ report this post ] | 100 % agreement with the validity Message: of everything said here! Myself, being old postal player, tend to use my days. Have to force myself to take games "in order" more or less, once they reach a thought intensive stage. Otherwise, doing all the "easiest moves" first eventually you reach to where all at once every move due is a hard one! Risks Timeout or bad moves or need to PP. I often speed up tho, as per Phil...said, once I reach where it is a Technical Win known to me. A "matter of technique" they say. This may explain the impatience of some higher rated players, at the end; if their position is truly so good; rather than that they are trying to force opp into a blunder of Haste. Tho it would not surpise me to see that tried too. ...... Personally I would Never say "move faster" or "resign now" even if it were K+Q vs K ! I Do Not consider that appropritately respectful; neither of the opponent, the GK site, nor the Game of Chess. IMO. ....... Borderline would be for them to send you a note showing the winning lines laid out for review by he who they feel is Lost. ....In regular Postal that is not Rude because of the existance of Conditional Move sequences ("IF 55...RxR then 56.KxR, if 56...K-B3 then 57.Q-B1+" etc) as a part of the game, which the sending player IS Bound to Honor when & if opp does accept all or part of such sequence. Sender cannot change his mind nor backout if he found he sent a blunder as part of it. ....... Mary875, Chessfriend Yannick, I recall a few months ago you had some difficulty to believe this type slowdowns or PP's like that could happen. I'm sorry you have seen it this way now. But could be Much, Much worse if one really Tried to make it so! And even within the letter of the Rules, it could be very bad to go thru. ....... I imagine that the "long(est) winning streak" is a pretty important thing to someone really working hard to get it for months ! Or if that is the Best Thing they have to work on at GK, at that time. It is not something that I consider at all for myself. But can see where it might be a fun statistic to work toward. And GK Chess is about Good Play, but Fun also IMHO. I hope there do not become many players for you who are doing this though. So you can have Fun too! :) Regards, Craig A.C. |
| roland_l 4/11/2004 13:05:56 [ report this post ] | yeah, ccmca... Message: I agree about the bad form in saying 'move faster' and such. I understand people wanting to play through ... but in postal, and gk chess ... I think its also bad form to delay and delay. I have 2 games in which I'm up a queen. They have no way out .. but each of these players are waiting the full 3 days, and moving their king behind 1 of their 2 remaining pawns ... I can march my king in no problem, and 'wack away' until they are exposed and mated, but at 3 days a move with maybe 9 moves left .. thats right baby, another month to go. |
| macheide 4/11/2004 23:38:11 [ report this post ] | mary875 Message: Dear friend, What's the hurry? If they are masochists, just turn your playing switch into a sadistic mood. What's the problem. Let them suffer! At least I enjoy it a lot. I'm playing chess not a car race. Regards, Andr�s macheide P.S.: Just an advice. Usually some players use to do that even when they know they are lost. It's a good strategy to exasperate you, to make you overconfident. Don't play their game,..., just enjoy the sadistic experience of knowing that you are the winner and make THE BEST moves untill the end. More than 41 years of my 45 years old have teached me that. Trust me and enjoy! |
| jean-marc 4/12/2004 19:57:13 [ report this post ] | What about holidays ? Message: What about when, in addition to taking maximum time to make moves, the opponent takes as many (time and frequency) holidays as allowable by the GK software. That way, you can literally make a lost game last for years. If you're that way inclined, it's a good tactic. You can hope that, over the months, your winning opponent will not immediately realise (or be unable to see) that you've made your move. You'll then win when (s)he times out ! Perhaps what is needed is a GK directory of "bad-sports" that you can use to warn others. It may be technically within the rules, but it's only fair to be able to warn others of that type of behaviour. |
| mary875 4/13/2004 01:58:52 [ report this post ] | Thanks everybody for your answers Message: Some remarks... I agree that "move faster" is a very bad form, it happened to me once (though I played several moves a day) and it really bugged me! brobishkin, yes it is good practice to play endgames. I learned how bad I'm in endgame. In fact, I'm a specialist in turning slightly winning positions into desperately losing ones;) ccmcacollister, you are right. Some months ago, I'd never experienced these slowdowns... though I was playing here for a little bit more than one year. Now that I experienced them, I still don't understand their motives. I'm mean, if you stall a lost game, it is still a lost game. And if you win with this tactic, it is still a lost game in your own mind:-S macheide, I like your idea to turn into sadistic mood. In fact, it's what I'm doing: taking their remaining pawns one at a time, while promoting mine... usually when they have a lonely K against two Q and a K, they resign, though not always. Maybe hopping for a stalemate? And for the hurry: I'm quite a nervous guy;) All in all, it is where "stacked moves" and/or "conditional moves" may become in handy. Regards, Yannick |
| sly_lonewolf 4/13/2004 02:16:23 [ report this post ] | :O Message: To all my present & future (hopefully you'll still play me!), I now announce that if you are getting the upper hand and starting to beat me, I WILL stall my game...don't worry though, I will not pm you to move faster! So, please don't let me do that....start losing to me peacefully! ;) Just kidding... :D ...though a 'conditional moves' as has already been discussed will come handy when such situation arise. Otherwise, just be patient...a big part of chess! |
| tyekanyk 4/13/2004 02:27:07 [ report this post ] | Why... Message: Don't you consider that a challenge to win in as few moves possible. That means not taking your time to capture every pawn on the board, although this may look fun it will cost you like a month of time, and just focus on the qiuckest way to victory. By the way this goes for OTB, when your opponent has like 1h 30min on their watch and is completly lost but still decides to play one move every 15min just to annoy you. You really mustn't let that get to you, just play your best chess. My trainer, an IM actually loves when his opponents do this to him over the board. He finds a sadistic pleasure in totally crushing them before forcing their resignation. |
| wendell2112 4/20/2004 23:32:14 [ report this post ] | Go Your Own Speed Message: I do, Its Just A Game, Win~Lose~Draw. Just Take Your Time :) |
| philaretus 4/21/2004 04:04:40 [ report this post ] | Message: If it's "just a game", that's all the more reason for being courteous to your opponent. |
| kangoldemancha 4/24/2004 18:29:40 [ report this post ] | Message: biggest reason is to keep you rating up. wina bunch in a row and thyen lose one that is already lost. keep doing this over and over a u have a fairly constant rating |
| dysfl 4/26/2004 07:50:37 [ report this post ] | For a better sleep, don't drag. Message: Not all the players drag when they're losing. I found that generally higher rated players resign or draw earlier than average. I hate to drag my losing game for a week. It is not good for my mental health. When I'm checking "My Games", I want to see more games marked as "@@@ Winning ;-) " in the note field than "%%% -3 Losing. :-< ". It is a balance of mind. I need some winning, most even and some losing games in my games. One thing I really don't care is the rating. I'm too low (1400-1450 these days) to care about it. However, I'm enjoying the game as no 1800-2000 players can do, as many of my games are full of surprises. |
| baseline 4/26/2004 09:17:47 [ report this post ] | mary875 Message: me me me me its all about me, I want people to play fast make bad moves so I can win faster!!! If you make your first 20 moves at 1 move per day you are honor bound to continue at that pace for my convince!! If you are on line you should be making a move on our game not doing whatever else you were doing! It's all about me! :o) just funning, I solve your problem by having plenty of games going so that I'm not bored waiting for someone to move. When their clock is ticking its their time to use however they see fit. |
| mary875 4/26/2004 09:26:06 [ report this post ] | Hey Message: Well, now I let them drag if they like it and I don't think about it anymore, yo're right: it's their clock and they do whatevr they like about it... I was curious, and I gained some insights about the answers given in this threads! Thank you all! Maybe you're right baseline, and it's all about upseting the opponent, so to get a psycological advantage;)! I tried also to solve the problem that way (plenty of parallel games). I noticed that above 25 running games, I was beggining to play baddly in all of them so I gave up... |
| baseline 4/26/2004 09:50:37 [ report this post ] | mary875 Message: sometimes I fall asleep in my computer chair, I wake up and I have a message from my opponent saying I've been waiting for you to move! Remember it's only psychological if you let it be. I have always found it easier to decide on a move in a game that I am winning but in a game that I am losing I have to spend alot more time searching for moves that let me hang on. When I am losing I usually wish I had spent a little more time at the beginning of the game. I have a guy that took a 30 day postponement when it was mate in two, then came back made one move and took another 30 postponement its now mate in one soon as he gets back!! To be honest I don't care sooner or later he will have to face the music! |
| wayneinco 4/28/2004 18:20:44 [ report this post ] | slowdown Message: Did you ever think that slow players are hoping you'll time out and they will win in a lost position? |
| baseline 4/28/2004 19:13:20 [ report this post ] | waning Message: lol of course some people will try anything. I've noticed that some players will send an unexpected draw offer when they realize they are losing I ques they are hoping you will accidental click the wrong button! I've seen several other ploys but I won't elaborate and give some people any new ideas. |
| yemio 4/30/2004 05:33:07 [ report this post ] | WHAT IS CHESS TO YOU: TEST OF STRENGHT Message: To me, chess is not only a test of the best in thinking and planning, it is also a test of patience and consistence, fro an example, i gave a knight again freely (mistakenly) in one of my games and my opp.who comes to play to avoid timeouts (MY OPINION) probably lost touch with the game and fumbled along the game..... Chess to me is an all rounded thing, you should be able to corroborate your superiority with long suffering (patience) WHAT IS CHESS TO YOU? |
| yemio 4/30/2004 05:38:36 [ report this post ] | WHY DO HIGHLY RATED PLAYERS DECLINE PLAY..... Message: I wonder, why do highly rated players decline play with lowly rated ones, i think it is high time gameknot decreased the 500 points above limit, also, may be there should be a limit to how many challenges one can decline within a period....STRICTLY MY THINKING. What do you good pple think? |
| mormel12 4/30/2004 14:16:20 [ report this post ] | yemio Message: you can set your own automatic decline settings on gameknot.com/ch_filter.pl i know some players have changed the settings there, so the 500 points isn't really an issue. greetings |
| basti1981 5/08/2004 15:24:01 [ report this post ] | back to the topic: personal account Message: happened to watch myself playing slower in bad positions, no need to say it was not intentional, so I was trying to explain to myself why I was doing such a lame thing. As said above in my case it was not intentional, so it was not really meant as some kind of "unsportsmanship conduct", it more or less happened automatically, that I just turned more to the games where I had an advantage, I don't know whether it was because it is more "fun" (might be some kind of psychological aspect) to play a winning position, or it is because it's (in my humble opinion) simply easier to play when you have an advantage, there's often the "second best move" good enough to win the game, but when you have got to defend yourself, then you are really forced to look for the best move, and that takes more time. that's at least the explanation I gave to myself p.s. I am not talking about games with a whole piece down or a position that is mate within a few moves or something like that. |
| honololou 5/08/2004 21:20:08 [ report this post ] | well said, id=bast1981� Message: I agree�word for word. |
| cep2eu 5/10/2004 13:52:09 [ report this post ] | It's strange to me Message: that you would want to stall a hopelessly lost game. I often resign even if I still have chances, which is, of course, not very good either. I never play till an actual checkmate, and I don't understand people who do, especially if there's a forced one. Is it really that fun to continue playing when you know that you're going to lose? |
| mary875 5/11/2004 00:07:34 [ report this post ] | cep2eu Message: I also don't understand people stalling in hopellessly loss position. However, I'm playing most game until the 'end' now, as I noticed sometime ago that my endgame skills were really poor, at best... now it's getting slowly better! I now understand why some players start slowing when in disavantage... and this doesn't bother me anymore. Thanks GK friends for your nice answers! |
| tyrannosauruschex 5/11/2004 03:23:52 [ report this post ] | Message: I havent lost a game yet so I havent had to find out what it is liek to lose, although some of my recent ones are pretty unfavourable (but by no means,lost) so I have taken to analysing them a bit more heavily to be sure that I can find the best sequences I can in each position rather then rushing it (which is one of the worst things you can do in a bad position,it tends to accelerate losses). I found a good way to be sure your opponant doesnt drag it out too heavily is to get a bit of a conversation going and try to be nice to them, people would much rather lose to someone they like then someone who starts telling them things like "its a lost position - why dont you resign" or other derogatory comments. Thats the way I see it anyhow |
| chris21 5/11/2004 04:57:14 [ report this post ] | Message: Look at my game with Zecatol! he's been online constantly and only has 12 hours left to make the only move he can make:( |
| sugarandspice 5/11/2004 08:53:50 [ report this post ] | tout le monde... Message: Patience is a virtue....let people take as long as they want. There's no point in getting bothered about it. If you're in a winning position, you'll win eventually. Personally I doubt the majority of people stall deliberately, rather they are taking their time to think (especially if the opening has been rather set piece, the middle and end do require more thought), it is not a tactic to annoy. Virtue is also a grace, and it is a grace to know when to bow out and do so with dignity and respect for your oponent. Speaking for myself though, I tend not to like pro-longing any agony....least painful to get it over quickly. Like a plaster :-). The beauty of CC and GK! |
| brulla 5/14/2004 00:57:19 [ report this post ] | I love it.... Message: ... to be in a winning position. I am happy when my opponent then takes a long thinking time, because I can look every day at the position and think about the best way to fix the win. What a great feeling! Of course, I must take care not to miss the right move and look out for traps.... but that's exciting, isn't it? Cheers. |
| cairo 5/14/2004 01:32:47 [ report this post ] | I Message: kind of like this attitude by brulla, just think about those players who stalling games in loosing positions deliberate, will not have that nice winning feeling, I feel sorry for them :-(( Best wishes Cairo |
Post a reply to this message: |
