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| cryptos 8/23/2004 02:54:46 [ report this post ] |
 Subject: Open Lopez.Message: I was just wondering if someone could show me why grabbing a pawn as black in the Open Ruy Lopez is bad. eg. 1 e4 e5 2 Nf3 Nc6 3 Bb5 a6 4 Ba4 Nf6 5 0-0 Nxe4 6 d4 b5 7 Bb3 exd4?! What's wrong with the last move? Any help would be appreciated. :) |
| anaxagoras 8/23/2004 09:50:30 [ report this post ] | Message: Well, Black has just opened the e-file straight to his naked and embarrased King. A warning bell should be going off in your head to beware of 8 Re1. If then 8 ...d5, then 9 Nc3! (if...dxc3 then 10 Rxe4 dxe4 11 Bxf7+!), and White has won 100% of the time from this position in the GK database. I find that a lot of beginners can't help but to grab as many pawns as possible in this variation, and they always deserve to get burned for it. |
| philaretus 8/23/2004 10:59:42 [ report this post ] | Message: Some Black players have managed to hold it after 9...Be6 (according to other databases). But as anaxagoras says, it's bringing needless trouble on yourself. Talking of needless trouble, cryptos, what are you doing allowing the Ruy Lopez anyway? |
| cryptos 8/24/2004 04:36:22 [ report this post ] | anaxagoras Message: Thanks for the line. I'm not so sure of 9.Nc3!? still. After 11. Bxf7+ Kxf7 I still fancy black's chances. Is there a completely forced line that I'm missing? As an aside, are you interested in pre-socratic philosophy? :) |
| peppe_l 8/24/2004 04:49:16 [ report this post ] | 9.Nc3! Message: 9...dxc3 10.Bxd5 must be good, too. For example 10...Bb7 11.Ng5! |
| anaxagoras 8/24/2004 07:35:10 [ report this post ] | Message: One thing you're missing cryptos, 12 Qxd8! ;-) In other words, Black loses his queen if he takes the Bishop on f7. Pre socratic philosophy is interesting, but rather obscure and fragmented, so it's hard to really get into it. (And I have next to zero understanding of attic greek) |
| pandemona 8/24/2004 07:46:16 [ report this post ] | anaxagoras Message: Pardon me if I'm being dumb, but in the line 1 e4 e5 2 Nf3 Nc6 3 Bb5 a6 4 Ba4 Nf6 5 0-0 Nxe4 6 d4 b5 7 Bb3 exd4 8 Re1 d5 9.Nc3!? dxc3 10.Rxe4 dxe4 11.Bxf7+! Kxf7 12.Qxd8 (just to be clear what we're talking about :)) isn't the queen on d8 protected by black's knight upon c6? ~ Stephen / pandemona, following this with interest! |
| cryptos 8/25/2004 03:57:46 [ report this post ] | peppe_l, anaxagoras & pandemona Message: Thanks peppe_l !!! I think that looks like a good line. I'd thought about 9. Bxd5 instead of 9. Nc3!? but that doesn't seem to work. Anaxagoras, Pandemona is right that there's a knight on c6 in your line. Sorry :(. By the way, I'm a bit of a Heraclitus fan myself, although I agree that pre-socratic philosophy is a bit obscure. I blame the Romans for losing all those books/papyruses/codices. :) |
| anaxagoras 8/25/2004 09:01:49 [ report this post ] | Message: yup, I got that wrong. I was trying to calculate without a chessboard in front of me. Ok, so I'm curious why 9...Be6 is the only Black move that's tried in the database. What goes wrong if 9...dxc3? |
| jstack 8/25/2004 11:21:33 [ report this post ] | 9..dxc3 Message: After 9.. dxc3 10. Bxd5 Bb7 white gets the piece back. And since the knight is pinned the piece does not have to be taken right away. And now it seems to me there are 2 quite reasonable moves for white. - A) 11. Bg5 B)11. Ng5 - I will have to look at this in more detail before I can give my verdict as to which is better. |
| soikins 8/26/2004 09:08:09 [ report this post ] | 2 cents from Latvian chess school Message: 8. Nxd4 is also fine because 8. ... Nxd4 doesn't work: 9. Qxd4 Nc5 (after 9. ... Bb7 Re1 the night on e4 will fall after f3) 10. Bxf7! Kxf7 11. Qd5+ Ne6 12. Qxa8 +- |
| cryptos 8/27/2004 02:26:51 [ report this post ] | soikins Message: Black doesn't have to play 8....Nxd4. He/she can just continue with development. Also black can play 9...Nd6!? in your line, which safeguards f7. |
| basti1981 8/27/2004 03:21:41 [ report this post ] | ahum Message: soikins did not say, black has to play 8. ... Nxd4 infact he did the opposite, he said 8. Nxd4 is good for white since Black CAN'T play 8. ... Nxd4 and he gave a variation, in which he showed why Black CANNOT play 8. ... Nxd4 or did I miss something? |
| cryptos 8/27/2004 03:26:22 [ report this post ] | basti1981 Message: er...you missed something, since I said nothing about what soikins said, and I specifically refuted the line that he gave. |
| basti1981 8/27/2004 03:56:41 [ report this post ] | refute? Message: I guess black is facing hard times after 9. ... Nd6 10. Re1+ Be7 11. Bg5 somehow I wouldn't feel really comfortable with the Black pieces if 11. ... f6 (hard times for the Black King he's somehow stuck in the center) 12. Bf4 with the idea Bxd6 and Qd5 12. ... Bb7 13. Bxd6 cxd6 14. Qxd6 After 11. ... Nf5 12. Qd5 seems to finish black's suffering imidiately (I'm not an 1.e4 player so I'm not sure if this the best solution but it seems to be good enough) |
| soikins 8/27/2004 04:11:31 [ report this post ] | cryptos Message: in the line 8. Nxd4 Nxd4 9. Qxd4 move 9. ... Nd6?? loses by force: 10. Re1+ Be7 11. Qxg7 Rf8 12. Bh6 +- Actually blacks best move is 8. ... Qf6 I want to say that 8. Nxd4 is also a fine move (probably not better than 8. Re1+) that gives white active play full of tactical possibilities -- the kind of game that people love in Latvia. |
| basti1981 8/27/2004 05:59:35 [ report this post ] | ok even better than my first thought Message: ok this is line is better than my first idea |
| cryptos 8/28/2004 04:10:48 [ report this post ] | Possible difficulty with Soikins line Message: I'm not saying this is 100% right (please take note basti1981), but 8....Nxd4 9.Qxd4 Nf6 10 Re1+ Be7 seems like a line in which white would have difficulty proving his advantage. The black knight covers the d5 square, and if white plays Bg5 black just castles. If white plays Qe3 instead of Bg5, black can play d5 followed by Be6 ( I think ). Please correct me if I'm wrong. Latvian attacking chess is well known and Tal is my hero. :) |
| peppe_l 8/28/2004 04:27:57 [ report this post ] | But Message: I believe 10.Bg5! is more accurate - 10...Be7?? 11.Bxf6 loses (Qd5!) and other tries like 10...Bb7 11.Re1+ (important check, forcing Black to give up Bxb2 threat) Be7 12.Bxf6 gxf6 13.Qxf6 end up rather badly as well. I cannot see a way to prevent both threats, Qd5/Re1+ Bxf6 Qxf6... |
| cryptos 8/28/2004 07:23:39 [ report this post ] | thanks peppe_l Message: That seems like a decent line :) |
| soikins 8/28/2004 07:31:37 [ report this post ] | 9. ... Nf6 Message: Good try, but does not save black. 10. Bg5 (best, as peppe_l pointed out) 10. ... Bd6 black has to evacuate king from the center or else it will come under attack (10. ... d5 (trying to stop queen from forking f7 and a8) 11. Re1+ Be6 (if 11. ... Be7 then 12. Bxf6 gxf6 13. Qxf6 Rf8 Bxd5! +-) 12. Bxf6 gxf6 13. Bxd5! +-) 11. Bxf6 Qxf6 12. Qe4+ (attacking the rook) 12. ... Qe5 (threatening mate on h2) 13. Qxe5 Bxe5 14. Re1+ d6 15. f4 +- white has a piece for two pawns, black has no compensation. White should have a decisive advantage. |
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