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loreta

8/30/2004
07:22:59

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Subject: King gambit - Falkbeer counter gambit

Message:
I play the Falkbeer counter-gambit as Black (1. e4 e5 2. f4 d5) and started to meet White's reply 3. Qf3. Unfortunately, there aren't practically any game with this line. Has somebody some thoughts or some material on this line?
.
As example - Two know games:
1) -----------------
1.e4 e5 2.f4 d5 3.Qf3 dxe4 4.Qxe4 Nf6 5.Qxe5+ Be7 6.Nf3 Nc6 7.Bb5 0-0 8.Bxc6 bxc6
9.0-0 Ba6 10.d3 Bd6 11.Qa5 Bb5 12.c4 Bc5+ 13.Kh1 Qxd3 14.Nbd2 Ne4 15.cxb5 Qxf1+ 16.Nxf1 Nf2+
17.Kg1 Nh3+ 18.Kh1 Nf2+ 1/2, J.Allan-L.Landry, 1978, corr.
2) ------------------------------------------------------
1.e4 e5 2.f4 d5 3.Qf3 exf4 4.Qxf4 dxe4 5.Bc4 Nf6 6.Qg5 h6 7.Qg3 Qd6 8.Qb3 Qd7
9.Qg3 Ng4 10.Qf4 Nf6 11.Qg3 g6 12.Ne2 Bd6 13.Qc3 Qe7 14.Ng3 0-0 15.0-0 Bc5+ 16.d4 exd3+
17.Kh1 Ng4 18.Qxd3 Ne5 19.Qc3 Kh7 20.Nd2 Nxc4 21.Nxc4 Nc6 22.Qd2 g5 23.Qd1 f5 24.c3 Bd7
25.Qc2 Qe8 26.Bd2 Qg6 27.Rad1 Be6 28.Na3 Rad8 29.b4 Bd6 30.Nb5 Be5 31.a4 Bc4 32.Rfe1 Bd3
33.Qc1 f4 34.Nf1 Qh5 35.h3 f3 36.Nh2 fxg2+ 37.Kxg2 Qh4 38.Re3 Be4+ 39.Nf3 Qg3+ 40.Kf1 Qxh3+
41.Kg1 Qg3+ 42.Kf1 Rxf3+ 0-1, D.Hunter-A.Caoili, 1999


woodmover

9/04/2004
13:20:02

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Qf3

Message:
Hi I play king gambit I never plays Qf3 but i fund 3 other games... maybe it helps you..



[White "Schapoehler,Bernhard"]
[Black "Kutteroff,Ernst"]
[Eco "C31"]
1.e4 e5 2.f4 d5 3.Qf3 Nf6 4.exd5 e4 5.Qe3 Qxd5 6.Nc3 Qe6 7.h3 h5 8.Nge2 Nc6
9.a3 b6 10.b4 Bb7 11.Ng3 0-0-0 12.Bb2 Nd4 13.0-0-0 h4 14.Nge2 Nf5 15.Qg1 Qd7 16.g4 hxg3 17.Nxg3 Nxg3 18.Qxg3 Rg8 19.h4 Bd6 20.Bh3 Nh5 21.Bxd7+ Rxd7 22.Qg4 Nf6 23.Qf5 a6 24.Rhg1 Ne8 25.Nxe4 g6 26.Nxd6+ Nxd6 27.Qh3 Be4 28.h5 Bf5 29.Qg2 Kb8 30.h6 Nc4 31.h7 Rgd8 32.h8=Q Rxh8 33.Bxh8 Nxa3 34.d3 Nb5 35.Bf6 Rd6 36.Be5 Re6 37.Rh1 Re8 38.Qc6 Rd8 39.Qxb6+ 1-0

[White "Hunter,Daniel"]
[Black "Caoili,Arianne"]
[Eco "C31"]
1.e4 e5 2.f4 d5 3.Qf3 exf4 4.Qxf4 dxe4 5.Bc4 Nf6 6.Qg5 h6 7.Qg3 Qd6 8.Qb3 Qd7
9.Qg3 Ng4 10.Qf4 Nf6 11.Qg3 g6 12.Ne2 Bd6 13.Qc3 Qe7 14.Ng3 0-0 15.0-0 Bc5+ 16.d4 exd3+ 17.Kh1 Ng4 18.Qxd3 Ne5 19.Qc3 Kh7 20.Nd2 Nxc4 21.Nxc4 Nc6 22.Qd2 g5 23.Qd1 f5 24.c3 Bd7 25.Qc2 Qe8 26.Bd2 Qg6 27.Rad1 Be6 28.Na3 Rad8 29.b4 Bd6 30.Nb5 Be5 31.a4 Bc4 32.Rfe1 Bd3 33.Qc1 f4 34.Nf1 Qh5 35.h3 f3 36.Nh2 fxg2+ 37.Kxg2 Qh4 38.Re3 Be4+ 39.Nf3 Qg3+ 40.Kf1 Qxh3+
41.Kg1 Qg3+ 42.Kf1 Rxf3+ 0-1

[White "Novotny,Robert"]
[Black "Karaba,David"]
[Eco "C33"]
1.e4 e5 2.f4 d5 3.Qf3 exf4 4.exd5 Qh4+ 5.g3 fxg3 6.hxg3 Qe7+ 7.Ne2 Nf6 8.Nbc3 Bg4 9.Qg2 Nbd7 10.d3 Ne5 11.Qf2 Nf3+ 12.Kd1 Qb4 13.Bg2 Bc5 14.Be3 Nd4 15.Kc1 Nxe2+ 16.Nxe2 Bxe3+ 17.Qxe3+ Kd7 18.Qf4 Qxf4+ 19.Nxf4 Rhe8 20.Bh3 Bxh3 21.Nxh3 Nxd5 22.Kd2 Re5 23.Nf4 Nf6 24.c4 Rae8 25.Raf1 h6 26.Ng2 Re2+ 0-1



Woodmover


anaxagoras

9/04/2004
14:13:42

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Message:
I've seen some games with this line at chessbase, in particular Reti with the White pieces.

loreta

9/05/2004
04:07:33

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Tnx...

Message:
id=anaxagoras, could you provide them?
---
It seems, the main Black's choice is between 3. ... exf4 and 3. ... dxe4....
Could any give their opinion, which he/her would prefer?
[No special analysis - just opinion; even better with idea - why?]


sualksnh

9/05/2004
05:11:09

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3...exf4!

Message:
Against the Breyer-Gambit (1.e4 e5 2.f4 exf4 3.Qf3?!) 3...d5! is considered to be by far the best move. So far for White no way to equality has been found.
I suggest to transpose to this promising line: 1.e4 e5 2.f4 d5 3.Qf3?! exf4!
White has nothing better than 4.exd5 which is best answered by 4...Nf6! Black's idea is to open the position and develop rapidly. In many cases he'll follow up with c6 soon. In case of 5.Bb5+ he should do that, since 5...Bd7 6.Nc3 Lb4 7.Nge2 O-O 8.Bxd7 Nbxd7 9.O-O Nb6 11.Nxf4 was good for White (Reti - Rubinstein, 1919).
A later game went 5.Bb5+ c6! 6.dxc6 bxc6! [6...Nxc6!?] 7.Ne2 Qb6 8.Bc4 Bd6 9.d4 O-O 10.O-O Bg4 with advantage for Black (Dementjev - Pugatshevsky, 1973).


loreta

9/05/2004
05:42:32

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GREAT!

Message:
ok, sualksnh, - you'd showed a path!

mandala

9/15/2004
07:04:47

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nimzowitsch variation

Message:
he lolela
i play the falkbeer counter gambit as well.
after exd5 i always play c6.
what's your opinion on that move? every played it?

thanks a bunch
Anthony Robbins


chris21

9/18/2004
08:20:12

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Message:
The Falkbeer Counter Gambit is only reached after 1.e4 e5 2.f4 d5 3.exd5 d3

Because if black plays 3...c6 it's the nimzowitsch counter gambit.



chris21

9/18/2004
10:42:02

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oops

Message:
Sorry, in the above post I meant the falkbeer is reached after 1.e4 e5 2.f4 d5 3.exd5 e3 (not d3).

philaretus

9/18/2004
10:50:31

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Come on....

Message:
.....the Falkbeer is reached after 1.e4 e5 2.f4 d5.

3.exd5 c6 is just one variation of it.


chris21

9/18/2004
21:04:29

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Message:
The books I have consider 3...e3 to be the defining move.

jjw109

9/18/2004
22:09:50

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hunh?

Message:
3. ... e3 is impossible. Presumably you mean 3. ... e4.

Agree with philaretus that the Falkbeer Counter Gambit is defined simply by 1. e4 e5 2. f4 d5. Black effectively declines White's pawn offer, and instead offers up one instead.

Following that if 3. exd5 c6 is the Nimzovich Counter Gambit but it is simply a variation of the Falkbeer where Black offers up another pawn. It may be called this because it is another gambit but also because 3. exd5 e4 4. Bb5+ is specifically the Nimzovich variation. So, the Nimzovich CG is just a variation of the Falkbeer CG just as the Falkbeer CG is just a variation of King's Gambit Declined, albeit one that can yield some spectacular attacks.


chris21

9/19/2004
10:53:52

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Message:
Sorry, kind of embarrasing that I have to correct myself twice, but yes, I meant 3....e4. (was late when I was typing:).

I have one book where the falkbeer is defined after 1.e4 e5 2.f4 d5

But "The Kings Gambit" by British GM Neil McDonald, says the falkbeer is reached after 1.e4 e5 2.f4 d5 3.exd5 e4, and this book gives diagrams ay the start of each chapter next to the opening in question.

On a side note...

I've never seen 4.Bb5+ played, I believe the best move is 4.d3!


mandala

9/20/2004
02:48:59

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now we're there

Message:
yes. 1.e4 e5 2.f4 d5 (=falkbeer counter gambit) 3. exd5 c6 (=nimzowich variļæ½tion)

now: all peoples, please use this variation always when playing a rapid/blitz game on playchess or ICC. The number of 4. fxe5 or 5. fxe5 (after first eating the c6 pawn) replies I've had comes close to 50%, winning the game in just 10 moves or so. HAHA.

But anyway. This is of course a site of avid Fritz users, so that will not happen here. Acc. to the literature White had better not accept the c6 pawn and in stead play Nf3 etc.

Then. as for 3... e4 in this gambit, I often reach the same like position playing the viena game as white (my favorite opening): e4e5 Nc3Nf6 f4d5 exd5e4 and then: d3Bb4 Bd2e3 Bxe30-0 and it's slaughtering time for black... or is it?

Anyone got any good continuation here for white?










loreta

9/24/2004
00:19:28

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Back to Qf3

Message:
There are many interesting postings but I would like to return to initial question... :-)
1) Just a note:
sualksnh noted "Against the Breyer-Gambit (1.e4 e5 2.f4 exf4 3.Qf3?!) 3...d5! is considered to be by far the best move. "
I found (in E.Schiller's UCO, - of course not the greatest source) with ! marked another move 3. ... Nc6! Any ideas?!
2) sualksnh also showed the line
1.e4 e5 2.f4 d5 3.Qf3?! exf4! 4.exd5 Nf6!
and then:
a) 5.Bb5+ c6! 6.dxc6 bxc6! [6...Nxc6!?] 7.Ne2
I think, White has here many other available moves, as well... and...
Isn't 6...Nxc6 really better than 6. ... bxc6, any ideas?
b) White has another move: 5. Nc3
And that position could be achieved from Vienna game as well:
1.e4 e5 2. Nc3 Nf6 3. f4 d5! 4. exd5 exf4 5. Qf3
Has anybody some sources (or thoughts) about this variation of Vienna?


loreta

10/11/2004
07:09:31

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New options

Message:
I reviewed known games of variation 1.e4 e5 2.f4 d5 3.Qf3?! exf4! 4.exd5
I noticed, that in the later games it started to appear continuations (with good score) as 4. ... Bd6 and 4. ... c6 (instead of 4. ... Nf6)
Maybe, some book or analysis appeared somewhere about 1990s...


ccmcacollister

10/12/2004
05:48:13

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Loreta

Message:
I played the Falkbeer too, as my primary vs KG but never saw a Qf3 line. I like to play 3... Qh5 in blitz tho :)
...
chris21 Did you mean 3 ... d4 ?
Just kidding, I been there too }8-)
We who are not GM Larry Evans . . .




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