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scottpb

9/21/2005
11:24:52
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Subject: end game

Message:
here's a question regarding choices of pieces in an endgame.

is it better to have
A) King, a bishop and 5 pawns vs King, knight and 4 pawns
B) King, rook, bishop & 4 pawns vs King, rook, knight & 3 pawns

sometimes decisions for the endgame can be difficult

any thoughts?

bananaman1

9/21/2005
13:55:07
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Message:
depends on position of pawns.

wschmidt

9/21/2005
14:05:50
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I think....

Message:
this is too general a question to be able to provide a meaningful answer. There are too many unknown variables. Are the pawns on both sides of the board or just one side? Are the rooks on open files? Are the bishops good or bad? Are the knights actively placed? Are the kings centralized? Are you defending or attacking? Do you need a win or will a draw suffice?

umpito

9/21/2005
15:26:07
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Message:
Rook and bishop work better together than rook and knight so, other considerations aside, I would take the latter.

Dan

bucklehead

9/21/2005
16:45:03
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All things being equal

Message:
I'd take the bishop and 5 pawns. Engames with a lot of pawns are often easier than those with fewer, and with fewer pieces the bishop probably has more freedom to roam. If you can find a way to swap B for N and enter a 5p v 4p scenario, you're in pretty good shape for a win; if you swap minor pieces in the other scenario and are left with a one-pawn advantage with the rooks still on the board, your extra pawn may only draw the game.

scottpb

9/21/2005
17:41:54
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THANKS

Message:
SO, the pawn positions are roughly equal
a related ? is bishop or knight is better in the end game with 5 and 4 pawns, respectively.
It would seem that the concensus is bishop as the bishop has a greater range.
Thanks
I'll let you know how it works out

-- Scott

gajolen

9/22/2005
00:24:28
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Message:
A general rule is that Bishops are better in the end game when there are pawn islands in both side of the board, due to their longe range. Knights are a short range piece, so they will be better when there are only pawns in 1 side of the board.

But as with every other general chess rule there are many ecxeptions. Do the bishop have any targets, how far the pawns, where are the kings and so on.

Also I dont mean to offend you, but i dont understand in your question why do you give 1 pawn more for the bishop side ?

All other things aside it is better to have a pawn more so i would go with the K+B and five pawns. Still it depends on the position, but if the position is equal it is easyer to have a pawn more.

mightytiny

9/22/2005
03:10:00
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Message:
As wschmidt said, given just the numbers of pieces in the options, it is impossible to give any meaningful advice; there are so many factors other than the numbers of remaining pieces, and indeed, these unmentioned factors are invariably quite crucial in determining which would be better.

It's just as well though that the help you'll get from any advice will be minimal, because asking something of others that would help you to make a choise in an ongoing game is against the correspondence chess rules.

You'd do much better to play the position without any advice (regardless of what level of usefulness - or uselessness - that advice might be), and then take the position where you were wondering this question, and present it on the board after the game is over; then you can ask a more specific question (how to trade down to an endgame in this position?), and people, seeing the position, can actually tell you what things to look at when making a decision such as that... and that newly acquired knowledge you can take to your future midgame-endgame transitions.

scottpb

9/22/2005
05:25:52
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good advice

Message:
Thanks again, all.
I think the idea of giving the board pos'n later is a good one.
And I pretty much got the answer
in general a bishop is better than a knight in endgame.
also, it is very informative that there are so many variables and that even a small difference in pos'n on the board can greatly influence the strategy one takes.
I really didn't expect so much discussion- so, i have a much better idea of how to use the forum now and I look forward to more soon.
Thanks again all
Scott

i_play_slowly

9/25/2005
18:05:44
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knights vs. bishops

Message:
gajolen wrote, "A general rule is that Bishops are better in the end game when there are pawn islands in both side of the board"; it doesn't necessarilly follow that "in general a bishop is better than a knight in endgame." As gajolen noted, it all depends on the pawns. If the pawns interlock in the center of the board, they might give your bishop no room to move. Your opponent could even make a point of creating such a position in order to suffocate your bishop. Bishops love open games; knights prefer closed games, because they can leap over a wall of pawns.
*
Another consideration: If your opponent has a pawn on an open file, and its promtion square is not the same color as your bishop, you could have problems stopping the promotion. Again, it all comes down to the pawns.

cedsed

10/05/2005
18:50:54
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Cheating

Message:
It seems advice was asked for and given regarding an ongoing game.

Justin

danders

10/05/2005
21:17:30
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Justin

Message:
No particular position was from any particular game was included in the question. If you're going to throw the word 'cheat' around in reference to your fellow players, you'd best have proof, and you should probably report it directly to the admin.

Personally, I've about had it up to here with unfounded accusations of that nature.

honololou

10/05/2005
22:41:27
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danders�

Message:
It is possible to seek and gain advice without citing specific positions. Scott's original question
was actually fairly specific and it seems clear that he was referring to a specific game and not
wondering in the abstract.

cedsed, read the posts. Scott has already been warned and seems to have got the message.
No need to throw around the "C" word.

danders

10/05/2005
22:55:14
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Message:
Several others seem to think it was abstract enough not to be of much specific help. If someone feels that there is enough evidence to warrant an accusation, I would think it more helpful to send it along to the admin than sling it around the forums.

Perhaps I am mistaken.

misato

10/05/2005
23:58:30
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within the limits

Message:
If I had an endgame King&bishop;&knight; vs. naked King, I definitely would look up the technique in a book. There I will get the general information I need to mate the opponent - without regard to our specific position. In my opinion this is within the limits.

Scott did the same, instead of a book he "looked up" in the GK-community - also without regard to a specific position. He got back general advices which could be looked up in books as well (and are well known to experienced players). His task is/was to think about those advices for his own position.

Furthermore it is always a problem that tactical issues (knight fork!) have to be considered from move to move, so the given advices may have been false because his opponent�s knight might have an excellent position.
Playing endgames by general advices is far more difficult than to follow a written opening-line, a "won" position (by book) oftenly slips into a draw - and you don�t know what you did wrong (and when)!

An additional very general advice: In about equal positions better follow the rule "the fewer the tokens the more moves to plan (and time to think!)".

Good luck for your games, hopefully you and your opponent learn a lot from this endgame. Feel free to publish it here after its end, someone will find the time to add some comments to yours.

scottpb

10/06/2005
05:08:21
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thanks

Message:
well, shoot fire.
as it turns out the advice was pretty 'abstract' and that's exactly what I wanted. I did not request, at least that was my intent, not to get specific advice but to think about some ideas of endgames.
All your input has been helpful and I thank you all for your thoughts and input.
The game I was playing really triggered the general question and if this happens in the future I can easily wait until the end of the game that got me thinking. no worries here. So, thanks all for the msg's. Perhaps we can play sometime.
Scott

bucklehead

10/06/2005
11:33:02
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If the game is over...

Message:
...why not post the board link here, so you can get a more concrete assessment?

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