GameKnot -- Chess Forum

Play Online Chess, Free Chess Online, Online Games, Board Games

Chess Forum
[ mod this thread ] << - < - > - >>

From

Message

erdite

11/27/2005
10:32:21
[ report this post ]

Subject: What are the best pairs

Message:
Is it true that a pair of bishops is stronger than a pair of knights or does it depend on the
position?
ps: This is not helping me in any of my current games(I think) it is just somthing that has
concerned me for a while.

luckypawn

11/27/2005
10:36:33
[ report this post ]

I don't know which is better

Message:
I think it depends on the position. But a pair of knights would feel more comfortable for me.

ionadowman

11/27/2005
10:59:17
[ report this post ]

Depends very much on position...

Message:
Though one rarely speaks of the 'knight pair' in the same way as a 'bishop pair'. In an open or even a semi-open position, the bishops can be devastating, working in cooperation. Many years ago, I 'sacrificed' a bishop pair, capturing knights on their c6 and f6 squares, leaving myself with a knight vs. bishop plus 6 pawns each. But ALL of Black's pawns were isolated, with doublets on the c- and f-files. My very pretty array lay all on the 2nd rank, 3 on each side. An easy win. So B-pairs aren't everything, even in an open position!
Cheers,
Ion

loreta

11/27/2005
22:36:44
[ report this post ]

Just...

Message:
I looked to Gata Kamsky game: -> www.chessgames.com
There Knight dominated Bishop...

mattdw

11/28/2005
01:45:51
[ report this post ]

Message:
I think it is a lot easier to contain knights (from my limited experience) if you have a pair, as you will know placing the bishop with a 2-square horizontal or vertical gap greatly reduces the moves options for the knight, this is obviously not always possible if you have the wrong colour bishop.

phaedrus81

11/28/2005
12:20:49
[ report this post ]

perspective

Message:
A bishop pair is definitely an advantage in anything but closed positions. But having the bishop pair, in itself, doesn't compensate for the loss of a pawn. Or for having many weaknesses and a passive position, obviously :)

If the position otherwise looks balanced the bishop pair might tip the scales in the long run (if you play the right moves), but if you can barely cover all your weaknesses don't expect the bishops to magically save you.

eqj2

11/28/2005
12:46:35
[ report this post ]

Knights

Message:
I would take knights over bishops any time

sahsakkchess

11/28/2005
13:05:41
[ report this post ]

Bishops,knights

Message:
Bishops are approximately equal in strength to knights. Bishops gain in relative strength towards the endgame as more and more pieces are traded, and lines open up on which they can operate. When the board is empty, a bishop can operate on both wings simultaneously, whereas a knight takes several moves to hop across. In an open endgame, a pair of bishops is decidedly superior to a bishop and a knight or two knights. A player possessing a pair of bishops has a strategic weapon in the form of a long-term threat to trade down to an advantageous endgame.
On the other hand, in the early going a bishop may be hemmed in by pawns of both players, and thus be inferior to a knight which can hop over obstacles.
Furthermore, on a crowded board a knight has many opportunities to fork two enemy pieces. While it is technically possible for a bishop to fork, practical opportunities are rare.
You can reed more:
-> mywebpages.comcast.net

bucklehead

11/28/2005
14:35:20
[ report this post ]

If I had my druthers...

Message:
...I'd prefer to have a pair of queens.

i_play_slowly

11/29/2005
00:26:05
[ report this post ]

It does depend on the position, but,

Message:
all things being equal, there is a simple proof that 2 Bishops are stronger than two Knights: On an otherwise empty chessboard, two Bishops and a King can force checkmate; two Knights and a King can only checkmate if the opponent unwittingly cooperates. Any good book on endgames will illustrate this point.
*
It is often said that if you have the Bishop pair (and your opponent does not), your Bishops are worth 6.5 points.

ionadowman

12/01/2005
00:33:27
[ report this post ]

Well...

Message:
...now, there's a thing! Check out this ending I worked out once of an idle moment...
Forsyte position: 7N/p4N2/8/8/8/8/2K5/k7 White to play and win. Mate in 8, I believe...
Enjoy...
Ion

ionadowman

12/02/2005
03:43:18
[ report this post ]

I forgot to mention...

Message:
...that the ending of my last is a K+2N vs K+P ending. The knights cooperate rather well, methinx.
Cheers -

migchess20

12/02/2005
06:57:33
[ report this post ]

Opinion

Message:
Considero que es mas fuerte tener un par de alfiles que un par de caballos.
Si analizan algunos partidos de grandes maestros, observaran que lo primero que hacen es tratar de cambiar alguno de los alfiles, para romper el equilibrio.
Tambien en los finales, cuando van alfiles de diferente color, estos logran tablas.
En posiciones completamente cerradas, es entonces excelente el par de caballos.
La mayoria de finales pueden observar que ninguno de losjugadores termina con el par de alfiles.
La mayoria de finales son 50% de finales de torres, despues de alfil contra caballo, al menos hasta la fecha no he visto un final de un par de alfiles contra un par de caballos jugado por grandes maestros.
Muchos Saludos.

ccmcacollister

12/02/2005
09:41:40
[ report this post ]

A pair of

Message:
PAwns on the 6th rank are always nice, but on the 7th a pure delight...

usethepawn

12/03/2005
17:36:07
[ report this post ]

Bishops

Message:
Can move around the board easier and make it from 1 side to the other in virtually 1 move but for knights it takes a couple.

I like the knights though because you can make come nice forks!

I dont know which 1 i like more though it would depend on the position i guess 1 of each maybe?

tyekanyk

12/04/2005
03:11:42
[ report this post ]

IMHO...

Message:
The pawn structure is a lot more imporatant than Bishops or Knights. If the centre is clear and there are equal pawns on both flanks, the Bishop will overpower the Knight. If the centre is fixed (White central pawn opposes Black central pawn ) the Knight is better. If there are pawns on just one side of the board the Knight will be better than the Bishop. Also as regarding to the Bishop pair the easiest way to demonstrate its efectivness is in Checkmating endgames. With two Bishops its very easy to checkmate, with a Knight and Bishop it's somewhat difficult and with two Knights it can't be done with correct play.
For refference try seeing some Fischer games, or earlier Botvinnik's or if you like classics try seeing Akiba Rubinstein's endgames.

far1ey

12/05/2005
23:28:05
[ report this post ]

Depends....

Message:
If one or both of the Bishops are aimed straight at Blacks King side in a open or semi-open position they will easily be better then two knights.(Assuming he castles there). However one thing a hate about knights is when they are protecting each other especially in the centre of the board. When that happens they can only be removed by pawns, bishops or other knights without losing material.

ionadowman

12/06/2005
12:15:13
[ report this post ]

Mutually protecting Knights...

Message:
...form a tough nut to crack. But they also don't control many squares. Not a good attacking formation as a rule, unless one of the knights occupies a square that must hold a knight (i.e. after an exchange on that square, you maintain a knight there). Can be a useful defensive formation in some circumstances. I find I like them that way if I'm hanging on like grim death to save the game. }:-[

wolstoncroft1

12/07/2005
17:13:13
[ report this post ]

Need a translator??

Message:
Here is my quick translation of migchess20's mesage above in english

I consider the bishop pair to be stronger than a pair of knights. If you analyze some Grandmaster games, you would see that the first thing they do is try to change something in reguards the the bishops, in order to break the equilibrium. Also in Endgame's, when there are bishops of opposite colors, these games end in draws. If in a completely closed position, then a pair of knights is excellent. You can see that in the majority of endgames neither player ends up with a bishop pair.
The majority of Endgames are 50% rook endgames, followed by a bishop versus knight. I at least have yet to see an endgame with a bishop pair versus a knight pair played by grandmasters.
To all my very best

The above was a translation of the earlier post in spanish

I would like to add that you can achieve mate with two bishops against a king but not with two knights unless there is other material on the board....
I have read from many different authors that the bishop pair is a major consideration at the grandmaster level in as far as deciding exchanges and that the bishop pair is stronger especially as the game opens. Closed games the knight is definately better. But most chess authors rate the knight as 3 and the bishop and 3.25 including Bobby Fischer in his book 'Boby Fischer Teaches Chess' so having two bishops against two knights would give you a half pawn advantage plus the fact that in one of a thousand games you may find a way to mate with them..lol Good luck
Keep the bishops unless you dont want to lose the tempo

ionadowman

12/09/2005
03:02:26
[ report this post ]

Knights and Bishops...

Message:
...It seems to me that knights cooperate better with pieces other than knights, unlike the others, which cooperate better with each other. E.g. Q+N is considered (broadly speaking) slightly stronger than Q+B in an endgame; and a N+RP will win where a RP+wrong bishop won't. On the other hand, a K+B+N vs K is a lot tougher to win than K+2B vs K. Ideas?

loreta

12/30/2005
06:59:30
[ report this post ]

Knights pair

Message:
My game has 2 K "advantage" board #3562260
No comments on this game, please - it's in progress, yet.

Post a reply to this message:

[ Log out | Contact us | Site map | Rules and Policies ]