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| From | Message | ccmcacollister
play-chess-online.com chess
3/19/2006
15:45:35
play online chess |  Subject: "Perpetual" Checks & 3 Time Reps
Message:
I was wondering if anyone has a game(s) that were drawn by a so-called "perpetual check"? I say so-called, because actually the draw claim is awarded for the position repeating 3 times ... but still there are repetition draws where it is because a King can be forcibly made to repeat moves 3 times ... or forever. And I'm interested in seeing some of those. The true Perpetuals.
Also however, I would be interested to see 3 times repetition draws that are not actual "perpetual" in nature as well, since the latter are a seldom thing. And I wonder just how often the first does occur compared to the second way? And I believe that both will most likely be of a forcing nature most often, but am not sure of that. Sometimes it is a mutual albeit unspoken decision as well. A silent agreement you might say. So do wonder how frequent that is as well. And to see the type positions where it occurs. (For eg Ive had it happen that we both liked the other players position better than our own. Perhaps one player prefers the others activity, but the other prefers an extra pawn held by the first!? Or such)
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So please post any perpetual or 3 Time Repetition DRAWS that you are willing to share.
***
Thanks! }8-)
| ccmcacollister
play-chess-online.com chess
3/19/2006
16:05:23
play online chess | One True "Perpetual" ...
Message:
Here is one repetition draw that I had long ago in an otb game, which I would like to share because I think it has potential to show up in your games as well, since I saw it occur again in someone else's after my own. When it happened for me, I was indeed down material during a time scramble. But it could just as well occur when things are more even, but a draw is desired.
***
WT has Kh1, Rg1 and Qh2 (note it could just as well be 2 Rooks there rather than one being a Queen ... but the fact that one is a Queen makes it all the more potent a maneuver!)
BL just played Qf3+ !
Now note that BL can always give check by Qf3, Qh5, or Qd1 no matter how WT attempts to rearrange his pieces. No matter whether he has Qg1,Qg2 or Qh2 nor whether Rg1, Rg2, or Rh2. In any combination of that the two pieces can arrive at.
No matter. The fact remains that the King will always be stuck upon h1, where a check can always be given. A true "Perpetual" Check.
***
(Note however, that if the BL King would happen to be in the wrong place, it could ruin everything...if the position were such that one of WT's interposing moves made the BL Queen become pinned to his King. For instance if he had K on the h1-a8 diagonal and so WT could now answer the Qf3+ with Qg2. Thus would end BL's
try to draw, instantly! So, also if it were King upon the a1-h1 rank or h1-h8 file. )
***
Has anyone had this Perpetual, or similar with King trapped to the corner?
| spurtus
play-chess-online.com chess
3/20/2006
03:33:35
play online chess | opening perpetuals
Message:
I dont have any such examples...
but I have often wondered if there are unforced perpetuals in some openings?... i.e. imagine the scenario where white moves a piece somewhere... say he moves his bishop out, then the black player moves his queen to attack the pawn the bishop defended... so white plays the bishop back... Black not wanting his queen out retreats it, black doesn't neccessarily want the draw, but cannot allow the bishop to come out to such a strong position, thus feels he HAS to keep showing white that he cant make this move... white persists with his strong bishop move and the game will be drawn....
Ok probably not a great example, buts its an example of a positional struggle that could happen anytime, and unless somebody backs down it will draw...
I think if somebody has a good database and good query skills ( not me ), you might find find such positions where the position repeats twice yet white backs out at the last minute and seeks a win... these ought to be interesting positions.
| stendhar
play-chess-online.com chess
3/20/2006
03:44:20
play online chess | Opening perpetuals
Message:
I can give an example of the top of my head. Here it goes: 1.d4 Nf6 2.c4 g6 3.Nc3 d5 4.Bf4 Bg7 5.e3 c5 6.dc Qa5 7.cd Nd5 8.Qd5 Bc3 9.bc Qc3 10.Ke2 Qa1 11.Be5 Qc1 (I should mention that if Black wants more than half a point he can play Qb1, but it involves some pretty bik risks) 12.Bh8 Be6 13.Qb7 Qc2 with a perpetual. White cannot evoid the perpetual or he'll get mated on g4 and Black is too much material down to do anything else.
| ionadowman
play-chess-online.com chess
3/20/2006
15:39:57
play online chess | Here's a couple from my GK games:
Message:
1) White: ionadowman
Black: cruiseylee
Belgrade Gambit:
1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 Nc6 3.Nc3 Nf6 4.d4 exd4 5.Nd5 Be7 6.Bc4 O-O 7.O-O d6 8.Nxd4 Nxd4 9.Qxd4 Nxd5 10.Bxd5 Bf6 11.Qd3 Qe7 12.c3 Rd8 13.f4 Re8 14.Bd2 c6 15.Bb3 Bg4 16.h3 Be6 17.Bc2 Kf8 18.e5 dxe5 19.fxe5 Bg5 20.Qxh7 Qc5+ 21.Kh1 Bxd2 22.Rad1 Rad8 23.Qh8+ Ke7 24.Qxg7 Rg8 25.Qf6+ Ke8 26.Rf2 Qe3 27.Bb3 Bxb3 28.axb3 Rd7 29.e6 fxe6 30.Rfxd2 Rxd2 31.Rxd2 Qe1+ 32.Kh2 Qg3+ 33.Kg1 Qe1+ 34.Kh2+ 1/2-1/2 Had Black taken the Rook, White has a 'perpetual of his own on e6 and f6!
2)White: cormel
Black: ionadowman
English/Dutch
1.c4 e5 2.Nc3 d6 3.g3 f5 4.Bg2 Nf6 5.d3 Be7 6.Nf3 O-O 7.O-O Kh1 8.b4 Qe8 9.a4 Nbd7 10.Bb2 e4 11.Nd4 Ne5 12.a5 c6 13.Qd2 d5 14.c5 Qh5 15.f4 Neg4 16.h3 e3 17.Qc1 Nf2 18.h4 Nf6-g4 19.Nd1 Bxh4 20.gxh4 Qxh4 21.Nf3 Nh3+ 22.Kh1 Nhf2+ 23.Kg1 Nh3+ 24.Bxh3 Qxh3 25.Nxe3 Nxe3 26.Qxe3 Qg3+ 27.Kh1 Qh3+ 28.Kg1 Qg3+ 29.Kh1 Qh3+ 30.Kg1 1/2-1/2
I've just remembered a third game that ended in a repeat. I'll send you that one another time. It's a fairly interesting game too, but I did stuff up my attack...
Cheers,
Ion
| ionadowman
play-chess-online.com chess
3/21/2006
12:16:58
play online chess | Not sure...
Message:
...what the other 'repetition' is you're asking for, Craig: an 'unforced' 3-fold repetition (a kind of tacit agreement to draw, not necessarily involving a series of checks), or the situation in which the defender can hold off repetition for quite some time, but will sooner or later repeat. This situation illustrates what I mean:
White: Kb1, Qd8, Ps: b2, b3, c2
Black: Kf7, Qc5, Rh8, Ps: a6, b7, d6, e5, g6
White plays 1.Qe7+ and maintains a series of checks along the h4-d8 diagonal. There need be no immediate repetition, but Black can not escape the checks. Sooner or later the position will repeat.
It looks as though one of my currently active games (ionadowman vs efrog1074) will end in similar fashion (a disappointment, really, as I thought until a few moves back I had the better of it...).
The other game:
White: ionadowman
Black: pinkoy
Opening; QGD - a line I'm in no great rush to repeat...
1.c4 e6 2.Nc3 d5 3.d4 Nf6 4.Bg5 Be7 5.Qc2?! dxc4! 6.e4 Nc6 7.Nf3 Nxd4 8.Nxd4 Qxd4 9.Be3 Qe5 10.f4 Qa5 11.Bxc4 O-O 12.O-O-O!? c6 13.Kb1 Ng5 14.Bg1 Bc5 15.Qe2 e5 16.f5 Bxg1 17.Rhxg1 Nf6 18.g4 b5 19.Bb3 Nd7 20.Qe3? [20.g5] Qb6 21.Qg3 Nc 22.g5 Nxb3 23.axb3 Qc5 24.Rc1 Qd6 25.Rgd1 Qe7 26.f6 Qe6 27.fxg7 Kxg7 28.Rf1 Re8 29.Rf6 Qxb3 30.Qh4 Be6 31.Qh6+ Kg8 32.Rg1 Re7! 33.g6 hxg6 34.Rfxg6 fxg6 35.Qxg6+ Kf8 36.Qh6+ Ke8 37.Qh8+ Kd7 38.Qxa8 Rf7! 39.Qxa7+ Kd6 40.Qb6 Rd7 41.Rd1+ Ke7 42.Qc5+ Kd8 43.Rd6 b4 44.Rxc6 Ke8 45.Qb6 Kf8 46.Rxe6 Rd1+ 47.Nxd1 Qxd1+ 48.Ka2 Qa4+ etc 1/2-1/2 After 38...Rf7, it became clear that White had no win - in fact I was wondering if I could draw!
Cheers,
Ion
| buddie
play-chess-online.com chess
3/23/2006
02:45:25
play online chess | Perpetual in RL Exchange
Message:
There is a drawing line in the Ruy Lopez Exchange which is a perpetual:
1. e4 e5 2.Nf3 Nc6 3.Bb5 a6 4.Bxc6 dxc6 5.0-0 Bg4 6.h3 h5 7.c3 Qd3 8.hxg4 hxg4 9.Ne5 Bd6 10.Nxd3 Bh2+ 11.Kh1 B moves + 12.Kg1 Bh2+ etc.
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