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| trkingfish 3/17/2003 04:46:02 [ report this post ] |
 Subject: No vote-No opinionMessage: I just found out that a person on this site who has strong opinions about the war, (opinions that I mostly support) DOES NOT VOTE!!! Some of the reasons this person stated for not voteing were: 1) By not voteing I am not responsible for for any deaths due to this war. (Quoted loosely) 2) My vote wouldn't make a bit of difference. (quoted loosely) 3) Well...need I go on? Would someone please enlighten this person as to the imporance of voteing and the implications of not voteing. In response I told this person that I refuse to hold any political discussions with someone that does not vote. One suggestion I gave for voteing when you do not like ANY of the candidates would be, (as I do), to write yourself in on the ballet. I would appriciate it if you people would take it from here since that would cement the validity of the statement: "VOTE or shut up!" |
| fooey 3/17/2003 05:42:10 [ report this post ] | My answer Message: Yes, it is I, the unworthy ingrate who does not vote. Here's my answer to the afforementioned discussion : I respect your opinion, but feel that your actions towards your daughter were chirlish and irresponsible. Shouting someone down and ignoring their opinion is among the worst behaviour that people can exhibit, and it's inherent in politics. If someone is ill, unable to vote for another reason, or even if they choose not to, this makes their opinion no less valid than anyone elses. If I kidnapped you on election day, and released you the next, would you feel hard done by when your family and friends ignored your political opinions for the next year ?! So your values state that everyone should vote. That's fair enough, but if you choose to ignore those with different values, how can debate take place ? The fact I do not vote is a vote in itself. I have always been registered to vote, and in 3 general elections (and accompanying local elections) I have either refused to vote, or spoiled my ballot paper. Yes, in the UK it's getting to the stage that I am joined by the Majority of voters, with less and less people eligible to vote registering a valid vote. How long can the flawed political system last if a minority turns out ? we hope eventually, this will force the country into changing the political system, which will have to be done before I vote. If you still don't wish to hold discussions with me, your loss, but I believe it to be YOUR head in the sand. I doubt enlightenment on why I should vote will be forthcoming, but if anyone could shed some light on why filling in a piece of paper determines whether someone's views are valid or not, i'd like to hear it. |
| drcorbett 3/17/2003 06:08:34 [ report this post ] | Why are less and less Message: people being able to vote in Britain, Fooey? Apparently, you're saying that less people are eligable? I don't understand. Frankly, you should vote, perhaps if just for no better reason than the fact that it's your democratic duty to society... maybe it WILL make a difference eventually... because if every Liberal Democrat and Labour voter decides that their vote means nothing and refuses to vote, the Conservatives sweep into office and I cheer. And you don't want that to happen, do you? |
| fooey 3/17/2003 06:18:59 [ report this post ] | Message: I'm saying less and less eligible voters are choosing to vote, maybe the sentence is slightly misleading. To be honest, I see no difference between conservatives, labour and the liberal democrats, besides the colour of their ribbons, and who they choose to cuss. It makes no difference who is party in power, it still gives me no power to influence, and very little power to voice my opinions. I'm holding out for a decent political system, where politicians are powerless administrators, and the population votes on the issues. the less people vote, the quicker it will come about. PS. Dr Corbett, of course i'd like you to be happy and cheer, I wish everyone could ! |
| trkingfish 3/17/2003 11:02:55 [ report this post ] | Oh come on!!1 Message: Bombs for peace, army intelligence, "don't vote" Bring about change!!! They all sound like oxymorons to me. |
| trkingfish 3/17/2003 11:13:48 [ report this post ] | By the way Message: Fooey, look up the word "PROXY" in your dictionary. |
| fooey 3/18/2003 01:39:38 [ report this post ] | Found it ! Message: It was just after patronising... Your response in the pro-con thread was much more reasonable, I admit that just sitting at home and doing nothing is too passive, and is not going to bring about change. In the last general election, I turned up and wrote CHANGE on the ballot paper, and was seriously considering starting a campaign before the next one to get people supporting the movement. Writing your own name down is amusing, but useless, since you haven't been put forward, so cannot officially be elected, and you'll only get at max 2 votes, and that's if your wife wants to vote for you ! As I said I am considering writing to the press, getting articles published, and sending emails around to drum up support for a change in the system. If everyone who does not agree with the current system spoiled the ballot with "Change the System", then this would be a valid, countable vote against the current political system. What do you think ? As I said, I considered it last time, and if I think i'll get the support, i'll do it soon. It's a lot of work to come up with some alternatives, voice and defend the position, but if it works it'll be worth it. BTW, I live in a monarchy ? The olny thing that old blue rinser is good for is licking the back of her head. If you ask me, it's another state of America, since Bush seems to be making most of the decisions ! |
| brobishkin 3/18/2003 01:55:32 [ report this post ] | Fooey... Message: The right to vote should never be taken lightly... The freedom and power we are given by the founding fathers were given so each individual can express his views and maybe even see some of his wishes come true... But at the same time the right not to vote is also a shared freedom... But to do nothing (not vote) in order to avoid responsability for the future problems, can be the reason a problem exists today... Every vote does, and always will count... Bro... |
| fooey 3/18/2003 02:10:08 [ report this post ] | bro Message: your floundering fathers have given me nothing but heartaches, I cannot condone the invasion of northern america which has made it the mess it is today, I wish the native indians had won. That invasion puts GWB's jaunt in the shade, especially in terms of the nature of the despicable acts committed in warfare - the behaviour of the attacking force back then rivals saddam gassing his own people. As for voting, I do not take it lightly, to be able to vote on the issues would be fantastic, and a taste of true freedom. Voting for the least corrupt politician is far from adequate, and so I consider writing "CHANGE THE SYSTEM" to be the most valuable vote of the lot. (ps. that's the beauty of voting, you have your opinion, you vote for it, and I vote for mine) If you always want to be led, and have your decisions made by someone else, fine, keep your head in the sand and vote republicrat or democan, or whatever. If you want to vote on the issues, when they happen, then vote for change. It will take time to find a secure and safe system to use, (probably a 'political web', seperate to the internet) but the sooner we start, the sooner we actually have the ability to vote, rather than merely elect. |
| fooey 3/18/2003 02:10:10 [ report this post ] | bro Message: your floundering fathers have given me nothing but heartaches, I cannot condone the invasion of northern america which has made it the mess it is today, I wish the native indians had won. That invasion puts GWB's jaunt in the shade, especially in terms of the nature of the despicable acts committed in warfare - the behaviour of the attacking force back then rivals saddam gassing his own people. As for voting, I do not take it lightly, to be able to vote on the issues would be fantastic, and a taste of true freedom. Voting for the least corrupt politician is far from adequate, and so I consider writing "CHANGE THE SYSTEM" to be the most valuable vote of the lot. (ps. that's the beauty of voting, you have your opinion, you vote for it, and I vote for mine) If you always want to be led, and have your decisions made by someone else, fine, keep your head in the sand and vote republicrat or democan, or whatever. If you want to vote on the issues, when they happen, then vote for change. It will take time to find a secure and safe system to use, (probably a 'political web', seperate to the internet) but the sooner we start, the sooner we actually have the ability to vote, rather than merely elect. |
| fooey 3/18/2003 02:11:37 [ report this post ] | doh, Message: how did that double post ? |
| pawntificator 3/18/2003 02:16:05 [ report this post ] | Don't vote! Message: Fooey is right, it doesn't do much good. All we can do is vote for whoever has enough money to get to the top(all usually bad choices) and after that it is out of our hands. Why didn't we have a vote to find out if we should go to war? Why didn't we vote on taxes, or medicare, or social security, or marijuana, or jaywalking? There is only one solution if you don't want to vote: Go run for president! |
| trkingfish 3/18/2003 05:12:08 [ report this post ] | Pawn, your a pain Message: Do you ever really mean what you say or do you just like stirring up trouble?LOL:) Keep it up, you make fun trouble (not much sence but good fun) just kidding, don't get on my case!!! brobishkin - Neatly and sisinkly-sasinkly-SHI-ure wish I could spell!! NICELY PUT fooey - "Been put forward" I like that. Real British sounding. I think that is a part of your system also. One does not need to be "Put Forward" here in order to be elected. In theory if someone received enough votes they could get elected even if they weren't on the ballet. Maybe someone can help me out here since it has been a long time since I've studied this. Also, fooey, during or shortly after the Viet Nam war Alfred E. Newman (mad magazene) received an enormous amount of write in votes. Of course he really doesn't exist. |
| fooey 3/18/2003 05:27:17 [ report this post ] | theory's fine, but still, Message: my point is that there's practically no chance of a person achieving a majority who isn't listed. It would take huge support, and advertising. Pawno, I'm glad someone reads properly, and even agrees with, some of my posts. Can i have a response from people with opposing views about the fact that voting to elect people for periods of 4 years does not constitute an ability to truly vote, merely to elect? Or do you all agree ? If so, why are we still suffering this system ? |
| trkingfish 3/18/2003 05:35:02 [ report this post ] | Of course not Message: No one is going to be elected president from write in votes. BULL!! It's a long shot but with the people we have had to choose from lately the chances are growing every day. Murphy's Law: What can happen; WILL HAPPEN!!! |
| fooey 3/18/2003 05:38:21 [ report this post ] | trkingfish Message: I commend you for realising that the current political systems in both the us and the uk do not provide a true ability to vote. It shows a strong character that you can change your opinions in the face of logic. |
| trkingfish 3/18/2003 05:43:15 [ report this post ] | WOAH!! Message: Don't put words in my mouth. Please clarify "True ability to vote" |
| pawntificator 3/18/2003 05:58:37 [ report this post ] | A pain?? Me? Message: I resent that. I mean at LEAST half of what I say, and it all makes sense to me. And it's succinctly!! |
| trkingfish 3/18/2003 06:06:45 [ report this post ] | Yah Sure Message: And donet korekt mie spelleng!! I noe houw twoo spill jest fein. |
| pawntificator 3/18/2003 06:09:09 [ report this post ] | UG, UG Message: er, uh, I mean, OK, OK. sory. |
| fooey 3/18/2003 06:22:55 [ report this post ] | How about : Message: the difference between the power to vote and the power to elect. The power to vote is the power to influence decisions on important issues. The power to elect is the power to choose who decides on important issues. |
| trkingfish 3/18/2003 06:59:38 [ report this post ] | I don't get it Message: voteing IS makeing the decision, not influenceing it. Yes, who we elect is suppossed to make those decitions(woh, I butchered that spelling) on our behalf and we vote for the one who will make the choises we want. So we're responsible. okay fooey, this is where your at. You are unhappy with the system and here is a perfect reason for you to use. BUSH WAS NEVER ELECTED BY EITHER THE PEOPLE OR THE ELECTORIAL COLLEDGE!!! Remember the Florida thing? If not, check it out as it will be you biggest tool in your defence. BUT!!! Our system was well concieved and can work. It is some real need of revamping to bring it up to date. what I will do to bring this about is to look for a representitive that realizes this and VOTE VOTE VOTE for him or her. |
| pawntificator 3/18/2003 07:13:29 [ report this post ] | Hey! Message: You can only vote once, not three times! That wouldn't be fair. |
| trkingfish 3/18/2003 07:19:42 [ report this post ] | NOOOO Message: It should be one vote for every $1,000's you have. OH, my mistake, it is already that way. I must have missed the VOTE to make it so. |
| fooey 3/18/2003 07:53:30 [ report this post ] | no, it's Message: one vote for each split personality you have... I remember the florida thing, and yes, it's another reason for ditching the current system. Still, i'm not going any further into it, as this would drag me down to the level of politics today. Politics is more like a soap opera or popularity contest than a method of governing at the moment, and has to evolve greatly before we gain the true power to vote - on the issues, not the candidates. |
| pawntificator 3/18/2003 08:31:00 [ report this post ] | More power to ya! Message: Right on brother. Tell it like it is! |
| trkingfish 3/18/2003 08:33:31 [ report this post ] | Right off!! Message: Go away pawn, you bother me:) |
| pawntificator 3/18/2003 09:19:43 [ report this post ] | sniff Message: Aw gee. I was just tryin ta get you guys to like me and NOW look! They tell me ta go away and all I do is bother them. Well, I'm gonna start my own thread and no one else can come in there either, you big meanie! |
| fooey 3/18/2003 09:22:06 [ report this post ] | look Message: if pawnman goes then I go. Stick around, tif', we do like you ! |
| drgandalf 3/18/2003 09:30:01 [ report this post ] | Empirical Evidence Message: has shown that one vote in a thousand will not change the results of an election. I believe the statistic was 1/2 of 1% chance of changing the result. So, if a Parliamentary or Congressional election involves 15,000, and you could control 15 of those votes, having the electors change their vote at the last minute, your chances of changing that election are less than the impurities in Ivory Snow. Citizens who vote must have another reason than trying to affect the election. |
| mormel12 3/18/2003 23:04:33 [ report this post ] | just a question from an ignorant Message: how is it that you can only "choose" between 2 parties. or are there more? if yes, how come i've never heard of it? i'm from the netherlands and we've more then 30 parties to choose from over here (not that that helps, it's still all crap, but you can refine the crap a bit that way:)) and pawnti, keep coming, i learn a lot of english from you:) (my dictionary is making overtime:)) greetings |
| trkingfish 3/19/2003 03:50:46 [ report this post ] | Normel12 Message: There are many more parties and through the proper protical new ones can be started at any time. The main reason we have been stuck on the two is not unlike the reason some people don't vote. "I don't vote because my vote will make no difference" is of course neanderthalic thinking, well, people use almost the same excuse for not voteing away from THE BIG TWO stateing "I don't vote third party because I don't want to waist my vote." They are of course assuming that the third party can not win and with this type of thinking it never will. |
| mormel12 3/20/2003 00:50:55 [ report this post ] | ah Message: okay, thanks a lot:) i just wondered about it. i agree with you that with this type of behavior, the system will never change, for good or for better. not voting is voting as well, because you let the winner get away with it. so as an assumption you agree with them?! greetings |
| trkingfish 3/20/2003 05:15:18 [ report this post ] | normel12 Message: You lost me there? As I have said in many of my posts "I am a Polish blond" so with that in mind would you repeat your last post? i am very interested in how the voteing proses works in your country. I suppose I could look it up but I would like to hear about it from a REAL citizen. |
| pswolfie 3/20/2003 06:07:31 [ report this post ] | fooey Message: ~If everyone who does not agree with the current system spoiled the ballot with "Change the System", then this would be a valid, countable vote against the current political system. ~ How would this CHANGE the current political system? They'd all be classified as informal votes and not actually count towards any changes of power. You can have 99% of the votes as informal yet the winner would be the person/party that received the remaining REAL 1% of the votes Do you have preference voting or is it first~past~the~post over there? I work for the Australian Electoral Commission and the Victorian Electoral Commission 2 seperate bodies in Australia that run all local,state & federal elections ( with no political ties to any party ) |
| mormel12 3/20/2003 14:12:39 [ report this post ] | trkingfish Message: i guess i missed a couple of posts then, or i didn't read carrefully enough, or my memory just left me wondering what i was thinking again:) oh well, i'll check the profile first next time:) greetings |
| mormel12 3/20/2003 15:28:18 [ report this post ] | and about that voting system Message: it's a bit late here right now, but i'll be back for it another time, if you don't mind. it'll take some time to properly put it down here, since it's pretty complex stuff:) greetings |
| trkingfish 3/20/2003 15:32:13 [ report this post ] | mormel12 Message: I started this post assuming that people would naturally support my position that it is imperative for people to exersize their right to vote. Them I pushed the issue further by saying that if one doe's not vote they should not be involved in political discussions and then I listed some reasons. Without giveing you my reasons what is your opinion? |
| mormel12 3/21/2003 03:19:38 [ report this post ] | well Message: first of all i had to pick up my dictionary once more, but hey, i'm learning:) i think people should always be involved in political discussions, especially if they do not vote. it might be that one day they'll see the light and got so much involved in politics, that they actually take the step to pick up their rights and go voting or, better yet, make their points in trying to get elected themselves. if you don't let them participate in any discusion, they'll never learn:) just my thoughts. greetings |
| trkingfish 3/21/2003 06:53:43 [ report this post ] | Very good Message: But you just circled around to the fact that everyone should exercise their vote. As to the discussion part, Take notice in the future of the loudest people complaining about an issue or a politition and find out if they voted. I feel that If someone is passionate enough to argue an issue then they should be responsible enough to vote on it. |
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