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| haslearned (#) 3/22/2003 01:53:26 [ report this post ] |
 Subject: iraq freedomMessage: I thought it was a delightfully innovative idea to free people by dropping bombs on there heads......how come no one thought of that ..........oh does that mean that Israel is really trying to free the Palestinians.....or that the IRA were freeing people or ETA or the red brigade ....or Osama !!! |
| deathray (#) 3/22/2003 06:50:50 [ report this post ] | Unless they are standing Message: on top of a military target, I don't believe anybody has had a bomb dropped on their head. If we wanted to drop bombs on people's heads, we could. We choose not to. |
| peppe_l (#) 3/22/2003 06:59:00 [ report this post ] | Iraqi Message: Soldiers are "people" too... |
| peppe_l (#) 3/22/2003 07:28:57 [ report this post ] | ...And Message: Before anyone says "yeah but they can surrender and we stop dropping bombs on them"... Iraq is a sovereign country and giving two options - 1) surrender and give up your country to the occupying forces 2) be killed - can hardly be called "liberating" anyone. Iraqi soldiers are defending their country, just like American soldiers if someone ever decides to start bombing Washington DC. Besides those are the same terms Stalin gave to my country when he begun his mission to "liberate" Finnish people and bring us the joys of communism. Yes Bush is a nice man compared to good ole Josef, but that is exactly why I find it so alarming that these two situations actually have something in common. Stalin too believed in "potential threat" (caused by our location). We too had some people who believed it was better to let Red Army march to Helsinki. Like I already pointed out in another thread, nobody has asked Iraqis whether they want to be "liberated" by USA or not. Let alone what price they are willing to pay for "freedom" to elect a pro-american leader from the candidates USA is willing to accept. Of course there are major differences between these two wars, for example now we know it was better for us to fight back and not surrender. As far as Iraq is concerned, there will be benefits (for Iraqi people) - no question. Perhaps a better leader, more allies, no more sanctions? But there will also be lots of casualties, infrastructure in ruins, humanitarian catastrophe...The second major difference is that when Stalin tried to occupy us, he lost almost 400.000 men in a long and bloody war. That made people ask was it really worth it? Even though its a good thing that USA has huge technological advantage - war will be over quicker, less casualties etc - the fact that there will be very few American casualties and no threat of Iraq striking back on US soil means that people have less reasons to ask is the war really worth it? Just my two cents... |
| drcorbett (#) 3/22/2003 07:29:38 [ report this post ] | Yes, Message: and most of them (so far) were smart enough to surrender. 8,300 surrenders versus about 30 Iraqi casualties. Not bad. |
| komei (#) 3/22/2003 07:57:04 [ report this post ] | Deathray - "We"? Message: YOU havent done anything - go to the front line for ALL our sakes. You can replace one of the "well-trained" US grunts shot by a "weak, demoralised Iraqi conscript". 30 Iraqi casulaties corbett? At least 50 Iraqi civilians were killed in Basra alone, plus at least 5 in Baghdad. And thats just the NON-fighters. Who knows how many more have been massacred by US imperialism unofficially. Remember, CNN and Fox only report what they WANT you to hear! The islamic militants are stirring. Already, they have killed a journalist in a car bomb attack... You have ILLEGALLY INVADED a SOVEREIGN country. For WW3 BUSH'S CRIME Americans will pay in blood. |
| drcorbett (#) 3/22/2003 08:22:22 [ report this post ] | Ahh, CNN and Fox only report what "they"want you Message: to hear, eh? So where'd YOU get your news? The BBC? A psychic link with Saddam Hussein? God? Your cohorts only tell you what they want to hear. |
| moebile1 (#) 3/22/2003 08:42:27 [ report this post ] | komei Message: >>>You have ILLEGALLY INVADED a SOVEREIGN country. <<< Yep. But actually I think they are after the leaders. I remember them saying something about a regime change or something. We're talking about a leader that avows attacking and killing his enemies without further provocation. One who is not willing to live at peace with the other countries of the world. i.e. a rogue leader. I would hardly defend this leadership as a sovereign. Being successful doesn't mean being ruthless. Don't talk about legalities when the one whom you defend does everything illegal by world standards. Why, he would even kill you in the middle of the night if he thought it would further his cause or served his purpose. That's how ruthless people are. He has proven he'll walk over anybodys rights to further his own diabolic goals. |
| peppe_l (#) 3/22/2003 08:48:31 [ report this post ] | CNN & FOX Message: Dont report only what they want you to hear. They report what YOU want to hear :-) Most Americans like pro America news so it is obvious such news are first priority. Not to forget the fact that if they want to have the access to war zone in the future too, they have to be careful what they publish. Yeah its selective information, but war is war. |
| deathray (#) 3/22/2003 10:16:42 [ report this post ] | Komei Message: If only you knew. Peppe_l. This is what war is. People get shot. They can surrender. Or they can die. We are doing everything in our power to minimize casualties. IF we just wanted casualties, we could have arranged that the first day. The objective is regime change. It's going to happen. Why do you believe that you are getting any better information on anything than we here in the US? |
| legion (#) 3/22/2003 11:43:59 [ report this post ] | Bombs on heads. Message: deathrays post where he mentioned: <<I don't believe anybody has had a bomb dropped on their head.>> Got me thinking. He's probably right. Nowadays with all the "smart" ordinance being used, targets are probably being hit at every angle EXCEPT directly above! I mean, these bombs/missiles can twist and turn faster than a fundie in the flames wars. I suppose it's probable that some poor SOB has actually had a missile hit directly in the arse. Imagine that. What kind of targeting algorithm do they use to hit where the sun don't shine! |
| pawntificator (#) 3/22/2003 11:49:04 [ report this post ] | Americans will pay in blood!? Message: I gave blood to the Red Cross and I didn't get any money for it...it's going to take a lot of blood to pay for this war because apparently it isn't worth very much, and they are saying the US will have to pay some 20 billion a year to help Iraq once we have finally ousted Saddam's Regime(which is a very good thing to do, by the way). But Komei, if your REALLY who you say you are (from the UK) then won't some of you guys have to pay in blood too? It must be terrifying to be so paranoid. |
| zoobrenok (#) 3/22/2003 11:52:00 [ report this post ] | funny... Message: i get my news from many sources, not only CNN or FOX, but somehow they are the same :). they might be different in analisys of the situation, but they report same events :-) I guess it means that only true media is that iraqi television with only two channels that have such high security that NSA was able to interupt the transmission first day of war... :) and that show old footage of saddam claiming he is ok :) |
| peppe_l (#) 3/22/2003 13:19:10 [ report this post ] | Deathray Message: "This is what war is. People get shot. They can surrender. Or they can die. We are doing everything in our power to minimize casualties. IF we just wanted casualties, we could have arranged that the first day. The objective is regime change. It's going to happen." No disagreement here. I have to point out one thing though - in some cases minimizing own (military) casualties increases the risk of civilian casualties. I hope US army will make wise decisions in such situations. "Why do you believe that you are getting any better information on anything than we here in the US?" Because I have seen (and see) both your sources of information (CNN, FOX etc) and ours and thereby can state that here you do get less selective but more detailed information (American news tend to be oversimplified). You can call it different media culture or simply the fact that we arent participating the war, doesnt matter really. Of course there are things your media is doing better than ours (lets face it, you have more resources), but to me objectivity, diversity and in-depth information are more important than flashy video reports. |
| deathray (#) 3/22/2003 13:35:34 [ report this post ] | So there it is Message: Peppe_l's information is better than the rest of us because he says so. Thanks for clearing that up. |
| hamlet (#) 3/22/2003 13:57:47 [ report this post ] | Message: of course our news is oversimplified, we need to dumb it down for the general public. moebile isn't a sovereign country one that is independant of other countries, or am I functioning under the wrong definition? |
| peppe_l (#) 3/23/2003 01:10:48 [ report this post ] | Deathray Message: And what is your opinion about information on Finnish TV channels? :-) The rest of us? I wasnt aware that I am the only non-American here. |
| zylstraj (#) 3/23/2003 04:03:28 [ report this post ] | I watched... Message: approximately 10 mins of UNEDITED tape from a newsmans helmet camera in Umm Qasr while the unit he is attached to was engaged with the enemy. The firefight was real, the language was DEFINTELY unedited - they don't let people say those words on T.V. - I don't think reporting can get any more accurate than that. On American television. (CSNBC). From what I have seen so far, it appears that the media has been given unrestricted access to almost all aspects of this engagement. The information given has been detailed and unfettered by any biased opinion for the most part. Iraqi soldiers are NOT defending their country, contrary to what peppe states. They are 1) mostly surrendering, or 2) defending Saddam Husseins right to enjoy a brutally tyranical dictatorship over the Iraqi people. I have several times posted links to what the Iraqi people themselves actually want - those who have escaped Iraq and are able to speak freely, without fear of torture and death from Saddam and his thugs to themselves, or their loved ones. To a man they say the same thing. They wish him out - by whatever means neccessary. I would also like to note that it is very apparent that the U.S. & British forces are exercising extreme restraint, and going to great lengths to insure the safety of innocent civilians - quite remarkable really. -JZ |
| nobody (#) 3/23/2003 04:30:30 [ report this post ] | zylstraj Message: I am definatly seeing a different version of the news than you are. <<Iraqi soldiers are NOT defending their country, contrary to what peppe states.>> Rubbish. You said yourself in the same paragraph: <<newsmans helmet camera in Umm Qasr while the unit he is attached to was engaged with the enemy>> Who were they engaging if the Iraq soldiers were not defending their country? <<The firefight was real>> How can you have a fire fight with no opposition? <<, the language was DEFINTELY unedited - they don't let people say those words on T.V. - I don't think reporting can get any more accurate than that.>> That was indeed unedited. However what your overlooking is, that was an area where the media were allowed to film. A bit of bad language does not mean your seeing the full picture. <<I have several times posted links to what the Iraqi people themselves actually want - those who have escaped Iraq and are able to speak freely, without fear of torture and death from Saddam and his thugs to themselves, or their loved ones. To a man they say the same thing. They wish him out - by whatever means neccessary. >> Have you not seen the hospital pictures then? Children being born into a war. The women in that hospiital certainly looked to be backing Saddam to me. <<I would also like to note that it is very apparent that the U.S. & British forces are exercising extreme restraint, and going to great lengths to insure the safety of innocent civilians - quite remarkable really.>> From what I have seen, that seems to be true. nobody |
| paolo (#) 3/23/2003 04:36:12 [ report this post ] | we don't know anything Message: We only heard one-side information. examples: We have killed Hussein. No, we have not. Well, probably we have. We are told the 51st Iraqi division has surrended. No, it has not. We have conquered Basra. No, there's some resistance. No no, it has fallen. But we control the surroundings. Iraqi Scuds on Kuwait. No, those were not scuds. A US missile arrived in Iran. Yes, it was one of our missiles. No, it was a Iraqi one. There has been an Al-Qaeda attack to an American military base. No, it only was one of our guys. 8,300 Iraqi soldiers have already surrended. Do you know that at the Pentagon did exist the Office for Strategical Influence? foi.missouri.edu/osi/osiisgone.html You also probably know that "information deception" (deliberately spreading false or misleading information) is a part of information warfare policy and doctrine. |
| peppe_l (#) 3/23/2003 05:55:54 [ report this post ] | Zylstraj Message: "defending Saddam Husseins right to enjoy a brutally tyranical dictatorship over the Iraqi people." LOL Ask any Iraqi soldier "what are you fighting for?" and propably the answer wont be "well ya know I am fighting to defend Saddam Husseins right to enjoy a brutally tyrannical dictatorship over the Iraqi people" "To a man they say the same thing. They wish him out - by whatever means neccessary." Strange. Iraqis living here are more indifferent. In fact the most common response seems to be "Saddam is a bad/evil leader but we dont want war" The fact that few Iraqis are interviewed in TV does not mean that they are representing the opinion of all Iraqis, or even the opinion of majority. |
| deathray (#) 3/23/2003 06:38:54 [ report this post ] | That Iraqis in the Us Message: Say they support the war and wish Saddam out, and the Iraqis in Finland are indifferent simply supports my claim that people who choose to come to America value freedom much more dearly than those who go to third-rate nations. |
| drgandalf (#) 3/23/2003 06:46:40 [ report this post ] | For Americans Message: I understand that C-SPAN offers a different perpective on GULF WAR II. C-SPAN has no corporate sponsorship. I also understand that PBS is a good source for historical perspective with the program "Frontline". |
| peppe_l (#) 3/23/2003 07:20:06 [ report this post ] | Deathray Message: No question, you know the opinion of every single Iraqi in America and therefore know that 100% of them support the war. Yeah, I am sure people from a 3rd rate country that has been a part of Russia & Sweden and has almost been occupied by a superpower (Russia) dont value freedom at all. After all you know Finland much better than i do. It is well known that only people from a superpower like USA can value freedom (or to be exact, only people from USA). After all, isnt "freedom" originally an American concept anyway? I guess the undeniable evidence you possess support your claim. It cant be any other way. Thanks for the response BTW, this was one of your funniest posts ever :-) |
| astinkyfart (#) 3/23/2003 09:01:07 [ report this post ] | where the hell does anyone Message: get that iraq is a sovereign state?? i know all information may or may not be correct but what about the iraqis that are already celebrating their freedom? i guess they are actors paid by american hollywood? all you weak , nonvisionary antiwar protesters let the iraqi people decide. soldiers will fight for saddam out of fear not for country. the people will prove you all wrong. but if by chance the iraqi people dont want liberation then i will be the first to say ok amercia get out. also komei your views are so radically twisted i dont think anyone can take you seriously anymore. get a grip man you have the makeings of a terrorist. |
| komei (#) 3/23/2003 09:17:27 [ report this post ] | Well said Paolo... Message: ...the amount of misinformation being spread around is almost as mindless and gruesome as the war occuring in the first place. So far the US in total seems to have managed to get at least 62 of its troops injured (50 by Iraqis, 12 by fellow US troop), at least 10 dead (4 KIA by enemy, 1 killed by fellow US troop, 5 in accidents), and have shot down at least one UK Tornado. There are at least 16 British dead, ALL due to accidents. Plus there are unconfirmed reports of at least 5 other planes and 2 other helicopters shot down by Iraqi AAA (Anti-Aircraft Artillery). The US has tried to deny or twist ALL these incidents and I only hear the truth (eventually) on BBC, ITV or CH4 in the UK. Plus, Umm Qsr and Basra are NOT taken yet and the Iraqi's (even just the conscripts) are putting up MUCH more resistance and doing MUCH more damage to the 'coalition' as was predicted. And I thought Saddam was the underdog! It's gonna be a long, bloody and drawn out war. So far NO WMD have been found or used by Iraq. There is NO chance of Saddam being found when (or increasingly IF) Baghdad is 'taken'. The Iraqi majority are behind Saddam more and more as the war progresses and they see the invading imperialists ILLEGALLY attack their country. Even those Iraqi's who don't like Saddam much certainly like the INVADERS even less and fight for control of their own towns, like in Basra. How would YOU like it if a bunch of strangers came and tried to take over Washington D.C. or New York? The 'coalition' is becoming more demoralised every day with all the hard fighting and daily 'accidents'. US and UK military forces are out of practice and being outdone by 'weak conscripts'. They will get slaughtered by the Iraqi Elite Guard! GET OUT OF IRAQ NOW, BARBARIANS! |
| astinkyfart (#) 3/23/2003 09:26:15 [ report this post ] | komei Message: have you completely lost your mind? give me your address so i can send you a straight jacket. you remind me of napoleon. |
| drcorbett (#) 3/23/2003 10:28:05 [ report this post ] | Well then, Komei Message: Underdog, eh? Let's compare: Iraq Undisclosed Dead/8300 captured or surrenderede Coalition 26 dead/about 5 captured WELL. Let's see who's winning here? 31 vs 8300+? Hmm, do the math. Speaking of that, about your cities not being captured... Umm Qsr not captured? Where'd you get that "fact?" BNN? The bull**** news network? |
| peppe_l (#) 3/23/2003 10:29:13 [ report this post ] | Komei Message: Speaking of BBC, so far they have been giving quite good reports, giving both good and bad news in _almost_ unbiased way. This is very impressive since after all Great Britain IS in a war. Like expected, CNN & FOX have been much more selective and like always there is a clear patriotic slant...still, some good reports even though overall I prefer other sources of information. I have to disagree about your claim that US (administration and army) tries to deny everything - earlier today Rumsfeld DID NOT deny the possibility of casualties and shooting UK Tornado despite of not having 100% confirmed information yet. Yes they might give somewhat wrong impression in some cases, but they know there is no point in trying to deny something people will find out anyway. For some reason US leaders have learned their lesson :-) It is true Iraq is putting much more resistance than coalition forces expected. This is a bit worrying (despite of being against the war IMO a quick victory for coalition is best for everyone, because they will prevail anyway...) since for a long time it has been clear that majority of Iraqi forces are waiting around Baghdad. I still believe in relatively short war, but the question is if there will be much more casualties, how willing coalition is to send troops to Baghdad? Using solely air forces is hardly going to be enough and as we have already seen, when bombing Baghdad civilian casualties are almost inevitable. |
| paolo (#) 3/23/2003 11:20:32 [ report this post ] | Dr. Corbett Message: The numbers you give are exactly what I was speaking about. The last report I heard today (from Pentagon sources) spoke of 2000 Iraqi soldiers captured (we don't know how many Iraqi casualties). The reports, from various news channels (including Al jazeera), tells from 5 to 25 coalition casualties only today (plus 25-29 of the past days), plus at least 5-7 prisoners. Anyway, this is not a game you can win or loose using this numbers in this way. The whole we can learn is that on both sides numbers and images are used for propagandistic means, from the manifestations of Iraqi people that welcome US soldiers, to the eyes of that guy shaking with fear after his capture. Truth is the first casualty of war --goes the saying. War is a loss for everyone of us. |
| thumper (#) 3/23/2003 12:21:34 [ report this post ] | Sad development Message: It now appears that Iraqi troops are signaling surrender and then ambushing the allied solders when they accept the surrender request. They have also used the same ambush tactics after taking theur uniforms off. Even with this threat the allied forces refuse to become brutal in it's conduct. |
| komei (#) 3/23/2003 13:15:23 [ report this post ] | Yes... Message: ...apparently the US networks were not allowed to give details of their own troop hurling 2 grenades into his fellow marines tent, killing 1 and injuring 12. Also they have not yet played the videos of the captured US marines. At least 35 have been captured, 25 killed and over 50 injured. Also, that first video of supposedly thousands of Iraqi's surrendering - it has now come to light that that was a propoganda video released by the MoD. America, lie after lie. There is an even bigger war amongst news and media networks and the US and UK governments. The CNN and Fox are the most suppressed, the BBC is slightly suppressed but ITV and CH4 (in UK) seem freer (no direct government/state interference) |
| zylstraj (#) 3/23/2003 13:23:41 [ report this post ] | If you want to hear what ... Message: Exiled Iraqis are saying, try these sites; www.opendemocracy.net/ ...for Iraqui views on both sides, or www.iprospect.org.uk/media.html ...a site developed and maintained by exiles Iraqis. Most of the sites reporting Iraqi opinion from established news sources like the BBC are heavily biased one way or the other. These two sites seem to give a clearer picture of what Iraqis (those in exile at least) truly desire for their country. -JZ |
| astinkyfart (#) 3/23/2003 17:31:18 [ report this post ] | koimei Message: you are completely wrong. american news has completely reported the incident with the american throwing the grenade in the tents. please stop posting lies. anyway arent you in the uk? how would you know what we broadcast? |
| drcorbett (#) 3/23/2003 17:57:35 [ report this post ] | Whoa, whoa Komei Message: We've already heard of these things. 35 captured? BS. Where'd you hear that kind of crap? |
| danrieke (#) 3/23/2003 22:54:01 [ report this post ] | haslearned Message: Puh-leeeeezzzzeee! If the US wanted to drop bombs on the heads of the Iraqui civilizians they certainly could have taken out the entire city by now. Good lord! Where do you people get these ideas? I feel like I'm back in 1969, ditching class to protest some war and spit on soldiers because it's the "popular" thing to do. We really should have been protesting Robert McNamara - the Ivy League moron who micro-managed the war via Lyndon -- based on probability graphs and economics equations! |
| peppe_l (#) 3/24/2003 02:39:58 [ report this post ] | Zylstraj Message: It is quite obvious that the support of war is highest among those in exile, they are the people who hate current Iraqi leadership the most and they are the people who arent in Baghdad when bombs begin to drop :-) The fact is since USA began to plan the war (and Iraqis heard about it) the support of Saddam Hussein has increased dramatically. How on earth this can happen if they want you guys to liberate them? And like you see even from CNN, despite of (propably) knowing that they cant stop your army, Iraqi soldiers are continuing to fight back. Some surrender, but unlike some of you guys want to believe, not everyone of them gives up because of hating Saddam. Mostly its about facing superior forces and having two options : surrender or be killed. Lets face it, the main agenda of Iraq war has changed all the time - suddenly its not about WMDs or terrorism...its about liberating Iraqis. It doesnt matter whether I check the news from Finnish TV, BBC or even CNN...my conclusion is the same : so far it doesnt look like Iraq is welcoming its liberators, and I am sure most US soldiers agree. |
| nobody (#) 3/24/2003 03:04:46 [ report this post ] | drcorbett Message: <<WELL. Let's see who's winning here? 31 vs 8300+?>> Its not a game. The numbers your talking about are peoples lives. Lives that have been taken needlessly. No doubt there wil be many more lives to be lost yet (on both sides). Like peppe_l said <<Lets face it, the main agenda of Iraq war has changed all the time - suddenly its not about WMDs or terrorism...its about liberating Iraqis. It doesnt matter whether I check the news from Finnish TV, BBC or even CNN...my conclusion is the same : so far it doesnt look like Iraq is welcoming its liberators, and I am sure most US soldiers agree.>> nobody |
| astinkyfart (#) 3/24/2003 08:40:02 [ report this post ] | peppel Message: i hate to say it but so far your right. lets wait and see if they are fighting for country or fear of saddam. i dont think most iraqis actually believe things will change right now. so why surrender only to be murdered later. if they dont change soon- that is to say if they dont want to be liberated- then i will be the first to say bring our men and women home. no need to fight for people who wont fight for freedom. |
| tbmbuzz (#) 3/24/2003 08:54:12 [ report this post ] | peppe_l Message: >>The fact is since USA began to plan the war (and Iraqis heard about it) the support of Saddam Hussein has increased dramatically. How on earth this can happen if they want you guys to liberate them? << How about brainwashing by Saddam's dictatorship? Have you thought of that? If the ordinary uneducated Iraqi peasant and grunt believe that Americans are monsters from outer space who will devour their wives and rape their children, of COURSE they will fight! (George Bush Sr's stabbing of the Iraqi opposition in the back as they were revolting after Gulf I doesn't help either). |
| peppe_l (#) 3/24/2003 08:54:41 [ report this post ] | Since when Message: This war has been about liberating Iraq? I thought it was about WMDs and terrorism...? |
| bartlebie (#) 3/24/2003 09:14:48 [ report this post ] | peppe_l Message: you don't understand. It this way: Everytime you say: "This war will not help to avoid terrorism in future." You will hear: "It's not about terrorism, it's about WMD's" You: "But there is no proof that iraq has WMD's" You will hear: "It's not really about WMD's, it's about the iraqi people." You might say: "But they do not want to be 'liberated' just to be occupied." You will probably hear: "Yeah, but Saddam is financing international terrorism and there was this thing with the kurds and finally we can't go wrong, we are america." And then you may start all over again. |
| peppe_l (#) 3/24/2003 09:24:25 [ report this post ] | LOL Message: Sometimes it certainly seems so :-) |
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