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olympio

7/29/2003
21:47:50

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Subject: paradox

Message:
What if someone started two games with someone.

One they were white, one they were black.

player A moves in the game where player A is white

player B copies that move in the game where he is white..

player A responds to that move.. then player B copies that move in the first game..

i twisted it around in my head.. there would really be no way to avoid it..

seems like a lower rated player could do this to a higher rated player.. and get some points..

(i know you could stagger the games timewise so they'd be forced to move before you made the move and they knew what to do..)

but aside from staggeirng the time is there any solution this paradox?


getoutofhere

7/29/2003
22:01:53

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avoidable, i think

Message:
I don't really see what makes this a paradox rather than
just a cheap trick, but, regardless, I think that you can
always force an opponent who is playing like this to time
out. For example if both games are set to time control 2
days per move, and I make a particular move you now
have 2 days to reply. Unfortunately getting the right reply
might take 2 days + the time that you spent copying the
move over to the other game, so you are screwed. If the
two games are different time controls then it is easy to
make the cheater time out.


olympio

7/29/2003
22:59:47

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well

Message:
yeah but i did say "aside from staggering the time" which i already thought of. i'm more interested if the logical idea can be refuted some how.. some way you can do it.. to avoid getting this done to you.. but i don't think there is a way..

bogg

7/30/2003
00:03:44

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In the movie

Message:
Where this was done the hero played a move so bad (actually it was a winning sac) that his opponent got greedy and didn't copy it.
That is the only way I know of


nobody

7/30/2003
03:44:49

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Olympio

Message:
Dont make a move in both games. If your opponent is copying game (a) with game (b). Stagger the games so that game (b) gets more moves played than (a).

nobody


baby_pom

7/30/2003
06:58:37

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possible answer

Message:
OTB...but not possible on gameknot though. Make an illegal move in 1 game. allow opponent to make same illegal move in second. Make your next move in this second game then before opponent can duplicate this move in the first game point out the mistake and take it back.

snowdog

7/30/2003
08:01:33

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so on the 2nd board

Message:
each player copy the move made by its opponent in the 1st board. I don't know how to avoid it, but I can't see the point in doing this. If the 2nd game is a copy of the 1st you will always end with 2 draws or 1 win each.

baby_pom. I've never played OTB but I can't see how an illegal move can pass unnoticed.


kai_sim

7/30/2003
08:41:14

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i thought about that

Message:
same situation before...
without try to let him timeout, eh?
i agree with bogg. sacrifice a rook or bishop to get a slightly better position (i know you are capable of doing that), then check your acting skills and type something that states you made a mistake and didn't see that knight over there, hope he'll get greedy and doesn't do it. i would do it in the endgame, it's easy there against beginners, because the free pawn then sometimes gets all of a sudden that extra tempo to break through. on one board you win with the queen, on the other board he gets stuck with his pawn: remis or mate. and don't forget, best thing is: you can even set him up, because he's copying you!!!

kai


baby_pom

7/30/2003
09:52:23

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kai_sim

Message:
well he wouldn't have any reason to deviate would he, because he knows that even if he truly won that game on merit, he would lose the other game with an overall draw - same as if he sat tight and copied all the way through.

olympio

7/30/2003
11:18:16

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yeah

Message:
cause it's either
one win and one loss.. or two draws.. both of which benifit a lower rated player.. so he has no reason to deviate even if he thinks i made a blunder

as for staggering the games so more moves in another..

it depends on him too.. we both have control over the rate of the games so that wouldn't work either


kai_sim

7/30/2003
16:36:11

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sorry, but thats not correct

Message:
I was more thinking about your ratings. for the loss he would lose less points (maybe even gain 1) than you with your higher rating and vice versa. so there would be a point of doing so.

silverwolfwsc

7/30/2003
16:47:00

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snowdog

Message:
"I've never played OTB but I can't see how an illegal move can pass unnoticed."

This month's chess life (page 47) actually has just such a situation in it. The guy made an illegal move to put the king in check, and the next move he would have taken his opponents queen. His opponent promptly resigned, and the game result was set.


brucehum

7/31/2003
08:32:09

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This cheapo was used in local league

Message:
This 'trick' was used in a local (catalan) OTB league match a few years ago, only the whole team used it, so the match ended 4-4.

The offending team got demoted automatically as punishment.





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