GameKnot Forum
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| From | Message |
| olympio 9/17/2003 21:27:41 [ report this post ] |
 Subject: GK Master titleMessage: maybe now that we are using the ELO rating system, we could award GK Master and Expert titles to players of various rating levels. |
| zoobrenok 9/17/2003 22:04:24 [ report this post ] | olympio Message: WHO IN THE WORLD TOLD YOU THAT GAMEKNOT HAS SWITCHED TO ELO?????????? WHO IN THE WORLD TOLD YOU THAT GK MASTER TITLE WILL MEAN ANYTHING?!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! WAKE UP! -- YOUR NUMBER ONE SPOT IS TEMPRORARY!!!! (sorry...) |
| olympio 9/17/2003 22:51:25 [ report this post ] | zoobrenok Message: "WHO IN THE WORLD TOLD YOU THAT GAMEKNOT HAS SWITCHED TO ELO?????????? " GK has switched from non-ELO to using ELO. "WHO IN THE WORLD TOLD YOU THAT GK MASTER TITLE WILL MEAN ANYTHING?!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!" and whether or not it would mean anything, I still think it would be fun. WAKE UP! -- YOUR NUMBER ONE SPOT IS TEMPRORARY!!!! (sorry...) i'm sure my number one spot is temporary. and I assure you I am fully awake and aware of that. --- what's not temporary is that i'll always be ranked high on ELO.. and that you never will be. (sorry.. oh wait.. what does sorry mean when you're posting in a forum? if you apologize before even submitting the post wouldn't you just not submit the post and fix your mistake in the first place) I get that you have a major beef with the ELO system and that Bogg's superb explanations have fallen on completely deaf ears. (And there's nothing I can't stand more than someone who's mind remains completely closed when good information and arguments are presented to him.) What I don't get is why you go on and on about it. Do you really think just because you hate the ELO system that everyone else who loves it will agree that we should do away with it? If you're simply trying to accomplish keeping the ELO from taking over the GK rating system entirely, then I don't really know but I'd guess you will be unsuccessful in that as well. |
| kingofpawns 9/17/2003 23:21:16 [ report this post ] | olympio... Message: try not to take things so personally, so we can keep these forums open. Look, maybe you are feeling a little guilty about your high ELO rating, don't, it doesn't matter. I know you are a fine player. No need to insult zoobrenok, he just thought you were putting forward those ideas based on your inflated ELO rating. I'm sure that is not what you intended, but I can see how someone might come to that logical conclusion. best wishes, Jeff |
| kingofpawns 9/17/2003 23:21:37 [ report this post ] | olympio... Message: try not to take things so personally, so we can keep these forums open. Look, maybe you are feeling a little guilty about your high ELO rating, don't, it doesn't matter. I know you are a fine player. No need to insult zoobrenok, he just thought you were putting forward those ideas based on your inflated ELO rating. I'm sure that is not what you intended, but I can see how someone might come to that logical conclusion. best wishes, Jeff |
| zoobrenok 9/17/2003 23:29:55 [ report this post ] | olympio Message: Go to these URL's and tell me if you see any ELO ratings there....: gameknot.com/rankings.pl gameknot.com/top_table.pl gameknot.com/rating.pl?1 gameknot.com/online.pl gameknot.com/join_game.pl gameknot.com/league_div.pl?div=d2 gameknot.com/tournament.pl gameknot.com/top_mt.pl unless I am mistaken, but my understanding is that ELO ratings are calculated for every user to see how people will react on it and how extensive ELO should be used in future. Who knows? - we might switch, or might use both or never switch. ------------- there is no fun in being 'master' in some community that is not recognized by anyone. GK is no more then a club. Do you want people to say - look, olympio is a cool guy? -- then do something like brunetti did when he created several sites to support GK, started GK Olympics, helped to setup team games etc. by the way -- he kept ELO ratings there with help of Mike, but people were not interested and it was abonded. Do something like tovmauzer did when he agreed to be our Team Captain in matches with others. If you want some title for fun -- win bi-monthly tournament, because winning one if worth more then dozen titles. In either case, nobody will give titles here on GK simply because an individual has reached certain rating. -------------- there was one really good 007 movie - 'never say never'. truth is that it takes 2 years of exercise for a person to rich world championship title in martial arts. that all i need to do to get over 2200 in rating is to play morecarefull and slower, use chess database, finally read some chess books -- because I never read one in my whole life! just taking chess more seriously alone shuold put me on 1800-1900 GK rating. ------------- as far as I know not 'everyone' loves ELO - just check last poll. at least 1/3 likes current system. i have nothing against ELO in general, i do oppose its introduction to GK. i think there is a difference here and i think i stated it multiple times before ------------- i don't care which system is used to calculate rating (have you checked soccer ratings calculated using ELO and compared them to official FIFA ratings?). i do care about hidden impacts switching to ELO (or any other system in fact) might have on GK commnity (not on chess quality - i can't care less about it, but on GK Community in general) ------------- at least my past opponents rating is 20% higher then my current rating, not 60% lower :). i know, i know, you posted explanation of Forums on how it hpnd :) smile :) --------------------------- now, before Mike comes and starts banning people left and right, let's just agree that we only post facts here, stay away from personal attacks and that we concentrate just a little bit on general effects ELO could have on GK Community. |
| olympio 9/17/2003 23:30:00 [ report this post ] | yes Message: I think I overeacted as well. My apology to zoobrenok. |
| olympio 9/17/2003 23:32:25 [ report this post ] | and Message: I can assure you my average opponents rating is absolutely as high as the opponents willing to play me. As soon as I get my active games count down to a more manageable lvl (aka one where I don't have to do a 5 day postponement in a crisis situation to avoid a dozen timeouts (like yesterday)) I will be trying to gather as many matches with the top rated players on Gameknot as possible. I am eager for my ELO rating to converge to it's actual value. |
| zoobrenok 9/17/2003 23:35:40 [ report this post ] | olympio Message: no problem :) -=-=-=-=-=-=-=- by the way, this is why writing long posts is dangerous - you might miss something someone else just posted :0) |
| zoobrenok 9/18/2003 00:01:50 [ report this post ] | another blow in ELO on GK Message: sorry, this time it is directly from olympio profile, but with no offence -- i use it for math only. -------- so, one of the concerns about GK rating system is unlimited growth when playing much weaker opponents. due to GK nature, paring is not 'forced' on player unless you join tournament or league or team, which means that there is really no control on whom can you play (and there should be no control, in my opinion) statistic below is not a blow against olympio, but against using ELO to stop rating grow (it does slow it down, but does not stop it completely): 17-Sep-03 won +6.1 2135 masterakobian 1990 39 17-Sep-03 won +0.1 2129 manuloko 1303 12 17-Sep-03 won +0.4 2129 grobnic 1462 23 17-Sep-03 won +0.3 2129 zchazman 1414 25 16-Sep-03 won +0.3 2128 kingpin00 1448 40 16-Sep-03 won +0.4 2128 * tetis 1486 21 16-Sep-03 won 0 2127 krappleby 884 0 as you can see, the way it is calculated on GK, olympio picked 1 rating point by winning against 5 players with ELO ratings lower by approimatelly 700 points. it is better then what GK has now (1 point per win), but all it means is that after we switch to ELO, it would take another year before someone reaches 3000 level (simply because that player would keep on winning against everyone and as we know now, top rated players on GK are always subject to challenges and challengers often, or shall i say - very often? -- loose) ---------------------------------------- but of course all of the above makes sense if we agree that biggest reason to switch rating systems is limiting rating growth |
| mattchess 9/18/2003 00:42:33 [ report this post ] | zoo - Message: But if they lose or draw a game it has a much more dramatic impact on their rating. Examining other players' histories will clearly demonstrate this. For example, if Olympio loses or draws a single game in the near future, it will likely offset the point gain, and in fact result in a reduction in his score relative to the wins against lower rated opponents. Your example was incomplete. The fact is, the ELO system DOES limit unreasonable escalation of ratings, and it DOES provide a more statistically grounded representation of strength. However, you are absolutely correct that because match pairings are self selected, it is not as statistically sound (or effective at limiting escalation) as it is for USCF, FIDE, etc - but it is still a huge improvement over the existing GK rating system. No rating system can eliminate problems entirely - but why stick with a system that is so clearly broken, when a better system is available that has been embraced by virtually every chess organization and server that exists? Possibly as important - or more important - is the fact that ELO ratings are THE accepted rating system for competitive chess worldwide. The switch would do much to enhance GK's "position" as the CC server of choice by serious players. The switch will provide a better (although imperfect) metric for tracking ones chess improvement. It seems like a good move to me. I can appreciate that others may feel differently...but I believe that if you take a closer look you will find that it makes good sense. |
| baseline 9/18/2003 00:54:46 [ report this post ] | Anger Management Message: I'm watching the Movie it reminds me of this place! |
| nectarboy 9/18/2003 02:51:33 [ report this post ] | olympio Message: olympio - you have raised an interesting point. at the risk of going off-topic, i was tempted to look you up. i found you are playing 151 games and have lost a lot of games, if you don't mind me saying so. this suggests that you are very keen indeed and are improving very fast. so i would suggest that you might see a master title here as a goal in addition to a bit of fun. if so, i would support your motive. i wonder if you might test yourself in otb play in due course? the master title is not easy to obtain but is certainly a worthy achievement and one which i imagine may not be too far from your grasp. please do not be angry if i have been too personal and you disagree totally with what i say. it's just i think we should promote young talent on gameknot rather than knock it. it would appear that you are, indeed, young talent! kindly yours, nectarboy. |
| zoobrenok 9/18/2003 19:56:59 [ report this post ] | mattchess Message: what are the chances of cyrano drawing against you or me? :) i agree, needing 5-7 games to get point is an improvement, but only temprorarely. I think someone suggested in past to put 800 as limit when you can no longer acquire any points at all for win - this could do the job... ------- see, this whole story is about making GK more attractive to 'strong chess players' i am not against it, but let's not forget about simplicity that attracts other folks :). And about the fact that 80% of players (read - members) are rated below then 1600. i hope with next poll on ELO Mike will put a link to Forums so we can see some fresh faces in this discussion "-)~ |
| olympio 9/18/2003 20:11:04 [ report this post ] | nectarboy Message: I've lost over a hundred games.. but I only really lost one. The rest.. well take a look at them for yourself. Besides my game against HugotheBest.. I've lost none. |
| tonlesu 9/18/2003 23:28:04 [ report this post ] | Sir Message: You have lost 138 games on gameknot---you are a loser! Learn to live with it! Note from webmaster: tonlesu has lost his forum posting privileges as a result of this post (insults). |
| spymaster 9/19/2003 00:20:28 [ report this post ] | excuse me Message: olympio is a good chess player. He resigned most of his games to prove something .... to set a record of losses. Then he shot up in his rankings ... i dont think of him as a loser He is just a plain manipulator ") |
| sxyvoice 9/19/2003 00:42:47 [ report this post ] | I agree with U nice guy.. Message: I agree with U nice guy..spymaster n..zoobrenoke n kingofpawns R Nice as like olympio.. I hope that all of the Nice ppl will B happy.. U know..What I mean..:) I think.. All of GK ppl R Nice2.. GR8 games thanks.. olympio zoobrenoke kingofpawns raimon drdesoto n..other nice ppl.. |
| trond 9/19/2003 00:56:44 [ report this post ] | A blow to Elo? Message: Zoobrenok. I'm afraid your example is insufficient. Playing someone 700 points below you in Elo rating gives (with two decimals), 0.35 points for a win, -9.65 points for a draw, and -19.65 for losing. In other words, playing 29 games against players 700 points below you winning 28 and drawing just one game, you have gained only 0.15 rating points! If you lose just one game you have to win 57 times straight to get back to a positive score. The Elo is based on that given a rating difference of 700 points, you expect the lower rated player to have a 1.75% chance of winning. If two players having constant playing strength difference of X rating points play a multiple game match (at least 20 games, if I understood bogg correctly in an earlier thread), their rating difference after the games will be approximately X rating points. This is true no matter what value X has. That's the beauty of the Elo system. |
| divine_sun_cat 9/19/2003 07:03:02 [ report this post ] | well put trond. Message: you are looking at this backwards zoobrenok. You are looking at the ratings, then trying to gauge the chance of player A beating player B. In fact the ratings will stabilise according to the results. So if Cyrano beats zoobrenok 999,999 times then hangs his queen in the millionth game and Zoob scrapes a draw, the ratings difference will reflect this. You cannot say player A is 700 points better than player B thus he will always beat him; the rating difference of 700 is calculated from the results these players have had. |
| zoobrenok 9/19/2003 08:58:26 [ report this post ] | trond Message: look on cyrano stats he has drawn only 15% of the games, while winning 84%. his 1% of losses comes as rounding issue. i bet he is strong enough to change his game style to be able to avoid draws. also, with ELO rating difference between him and those he has drawn against is not that big as with GK ratings, so he would still be able to gain points. ------------------------------------------- all i am saying is that simple switch to ELO won't resolve unlimited ratings growth overtime because of other rules in place on GK and that once I start my second AG Boys m-t, my ELO rating will jump up faster then my GK rating :) |
| olympio 9/19/2003 10:30:21 [ report this post ] | he might Message: he might be strong enough to avoid draws.. but i don't think we should factor in that a player wasn't playing their best.. that would kind of defeat the purpose. Since his performance against high rated players was still pretty awesome I just think he will adjust the average rating of his opponents.. |
| sjoroos 9/19/2003 12:48:11 [ report this post ] | Hey guys ! Message: Stop for a while and start behaving like adults! Why argue about things now that GK, after fixing the rating system, is an almost perfect chess-site!? And yes, i DO know that it will take a while for the ELO system to establish as there's still som inflation going on among players going for "easy" wins! But it really isn't THAT bad... just hang around for a couple af months and things will settle.... We have a nice working site with a nice GUI, social discussions, good tournaments with strong players, team play, the league... etc. etc... and nowadays we even have the opportunity to play BLITZ !!!!? So show some good manners and make FRIENDS instead of enemys, cause there surely are some people here thats worth learning to know! Don't worry, be happy :) /Peter Sjoroos |
| victord 9/19/2003 13:11:36 [ report this post ] | /Peter Message: sjoroos is 'spot on" ... again. olympio is a young upandcoming American player on the site. Interesting and talented. zoobrenok is a veteran of GK, opinionated, almost always in a positive way. A few posters here are close to the edge .... BEWARE the edge! ELO is here ... period (same as Social/Flame Forums are gone) That's it, deal with it. The real point here is that Mike heard us (you) and responded to the plea for a change. HE'S LISTENING! So let's move on to discussion of other ways to improve the site. OOoooooooooooooommmmmmmmmmmmmm! with apology to OAP ... victord |
| cairo 9/20/2003 03:05:53 [ report this post ] | Peter Message: you took the words right out of my mouth, thank you and you to victord :-)) Go crush some sculls!! Best wishes Cairo |
| lordoftherings 9/21/2003 08:26:48 [ report this post ] | please Message: can u play chess and stop to discuss why someone is no 1 or why he lost all his games by timeout or he is really a good plyer or he is using computer???etc... i dunno but i am bored of all these posts.. just my idea ... maybe there are a lot of people who insult another like "loser" who have fun in these discuss...no not dicuss...trash... Lotr. |
| spymaster 9/21/2003 10:37:18 [ report this post ] | hokay ..... ") Message: lordoftherings Good luck in your exams!!! ") |
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