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| astinkyfart 3/07/2004 21:07:47 [ report this post ] |
 Subject: benefit lost??Message: if paid subscribers get more postponment time and they postpone only to have someone cancel isnt this like a lost benefit? i rarely postpone my games but i did recently and it was only for 7 days. not long in my opinion. so if i do try and get on when i can a make a few moves why is this considered abusing the system, giving someone the ability to cancel my postponment in another game. if i had added 30 days i might could understand but 7. give me a break. i think your postponment time should be yours to control. if everyone decided that i didnt need the time then i could have timed out some games. so i guess its better to not move at all rather than try and make a few moves. i learned a lesson i guess. |
| deadofknight 3/07/2004 21:42:01 [ report this post ] | I agree Message: Why shouldn't the player have the right to control the postonement. If you have the right to postpone, why should it be rescided for attempting to further some games? This should be changed. It makes no sense. |
| coyotefan 3/07/2004 21:53:42 [ report this post ] | Stinky Message: I agree 100%. I have said this on these forums before. |
| ccmcacollister 3/07/2004 22:30:11 [ report this post ] | I Agree Somewhat Message: Yes it would be nice to have that flexibility for short postponements. Perhaps thats why it says somewhere that your PP cannot be cancelled unless you make 5 moves in any game. I assume that means 5 moves aggregate, not that you could make 4 moves in a dozen games or whatever. Yet somewhere else it seems to say that making Any (ie "one" in any game) move can endanger your PP ? Whats the REAL STORY with that? PArtly becasue of having enough game, but partly because of this< I just turned down a Challenge because I did not know how I could accept it. They offered a 5 day TC. If I had accepted, they had moved e4. So would it automatically have the PP days remaining added to its TC? If not and I then had to make a move 1 replay, wouold it then have PP days added to it. (PP was in effect befor the challenge was recieved)? And if I made that move 1....c5 say, would that subject me to poss. cancellation of my PP? I think the reason it is a reasonable thing to offer the cancellation feature, at least for longer PP's... A person could take a PP but continue to make moves in games where they are winning. But stall off any where they are losing, to discourage those opps or hope thay drop GK. Then cash-in all the Wins at one time to create maximum inflation of your rating. They might also delay games where its very obviouis win, to let other advantageous games catch up and become winning, so as to be cashed in at the same time. I don't believe in stall tactics, but do believe in legit PP's for whatever the players feels is appropriate. All in all however, THIS ALL needs to be CLARIFIED CLEARLY (to stress with redundency) ! So we know where we stand. Has Mike stated it CLEARLY since the contradiction I cited in my 1st paragraph ? I'd REALLY like to know. Until then, I will not risk ending a PP without a move ready for every game. |
| astinkyfart 3/07/2004 23:23:16 [ report this post ] | cmcacollister Message: all your points are possibilities but i feel they are the exception rather than the rule. i would like to add that out of 120 postponment days i have 113 left. so you can see this is my first attempt in my paid year and already someone felt i didnt need it. i will be ok in all games but my point remains the what if factor. if all felt the same way everytime then what good does the postponment feature serve? especially if your a paying member who suppossedly gets more time. |
| furryfunbundle 3/07/2004 23:25:38 [ report this post ] | I have seen this from both sides Message: In the shortish time I have been here I have had at least 4 or 5 extensive periods of postponement placed against me. By extensive, I mean in the order of 30days per postponement. In one of these the player postponed a further 30 days within a matter of weeks after the completion of the first. Ironically, there was a bug in Mikes code such that (in my instance) I was not offered the opportunity to cancel which made it doubly frustrating since this particular player was increasing his active game count at a dramatic rate. Clearly an example of "abuse" in my opinion. CC - for reference the rule is covered in the following FAQ:- Q15: My opponent postponed a game, what can I do about it? A: If your opponent continues to make moves in any of his/her games, you will be able to cancel the postponement and restore the original time control of this game. A link will appear on the game page that would let you do so after your opponent makes at least 5 moves (in any of the games). In practice, this means that when the player - makes a 5th move across any of his games - you will be offered the option to cancel. Overall, my view on this is that this site seems overly generous in how much postponement time it allows. While extensive (and repeatabley extensive) postponement periods are allowed to exist then some protective mechanism against abuse also needs to exist. Viable Options to my mind are:- 1) reduce the allowed postponement "total" period a player can draw from 2) enforce a maximum duration to single postponement events (eg 10 working days) 3) increase the number of moves a player can make before the cancellation option is triggered 3) create some new feature that distinguished between hard postponement (ie no access to GK) and soft postponement (ie limited access to GK) Rgds |
| ccmcacollister 3/08/2004 00:32:28 [ report this post ] | furryfunbundle Message: Thanks for your response to my Q. But I've read that FAQ and is the very reson I'm confused because else where it said something like "moving in your games will give ach opp the option to cancel your PP" Cnat find it now. It is not in the "Rules" option at the bottom of the screens, not in the Community Standards there. That means I either read it under Tournament Rules or...and this is where I think it WAS: probably read it from having it come up when I used the PP your games option. I'm afraid to even try to tamperwith that to see either ! Maybe when I get back and am inelligible for PP awhile, I can look there to see if that is where it said....if that click option will appear then, before im elliglible again. |
| ccmcacollister 3/08/2004 00:41:30 [ report this post ] | astinkyfart Message: I certainly wasn't accusing you or anybody. Can you tell me how many moves you actually DID MAKE before someone got and used the cancel option? It would be very helpful to me, is why I ask. Its unfortunate that happened to you. I'd almost wager that if the option to Cancel were Always available, someone would almost always use it. Or ask why one has PP'd to decide if they would cancel. I may be wrong. Just seems likely in any group of players, some will be more impatient. If a player does Cancel teh PP and "restore the original TC" it just applies to there game right? It doesn't Cancel your PP for everyone? |
| skeeterss0 3/08/2004 00:51:40 [ report this post ] | When you go to postpone your games Message: This is what it says: Game postponement rules: if you have postponed your games before, you will not be able to postpone them again for 2 weeks after the previous postponement period is over; you can only use up to 80 days of postponement time per year for free members and up to 120 days for paid subscribers; a "vacation flag" will be set for your account for the same number of days, indicating to other players that you are not available to play for the time being; in order to prevent any abuse of this feature, your opponents will be given an option to cancel the postponement for each game and restore the original time controls in case if you continue to make your moves in any of your games during the postponement period; I believe where it says "if you continue to make your moves in any of your games" means if you move 5 times. |
| ccmcacollister 3/08/2004 06:24:16 [ report this post ] | Thanks Skeeters ! ...YES... Message: That is the passage Exactly, that has confused me, in conjunction with the "5-moves" FAQ ! I certainly hope that is what it means then, if I try it; that it does require 5 moves before the cancel option is valid. It would be nice to make a move in a few games I have that are slower time controls anyway. I suppose the FAQ probably would be the more recent of the two statements. |
| skeeterss0 3/08/2004 07:55:05 [ report this post ] | Personally I play it safe Message: and only move after I know I will no longer need the postponement. |
| achillesheel 3/08/2004 11:36:30 [ report this post ] | Why Not Message: A rule that your opponent can cancel if you make moves in other games, but not his/her game? (Of course, even then your opponent could make one move in yours and 30 moves in others.) I have had an opponent who postponed an already lengthy team match. I found she was making moves in all of her other games except mine. I canceled the postponement (only time I've ever done that). I'm glad I had the option. She was gaming the system at my expense. FWIW: I put up a msg saying "I will try to move during my vacation. If I do so, pls don't cancel the postponement." Most people are smart enough to figure out that half a loaf is better than none. They are glad for me to make *some* moves during the postponement. I have postponed three or four times since joining GK and have never had anyone cancel a postponement. But maybe my teammate skeeterss0 has the best advice by simply playing it safe. I personally would rather have to make no moves during my vacation than lose the privilege of canceling a postponement that my opponent is abusing. |
| furryfunbundle 3/08/2004 12:00:01 [ report this post ] | CC Message: The ambiguity of the help (??) messages aside - the fact is (confirmed by Mike and observed by myself in response to an abuse situation) "any" 5 moves made by the player currenty postponed (be it in one game or across several games) will trigger the cancel option. Rgds. |
| ccmcacollister 3/08/2004 14:27:22 [ report this post ] | Thanks much FFB... Message: Since you've had the situation and confirmation from Mike, that sounds definative to me then. I appreciate knowing ! That is how I'll consider it to be from now on. But to still be as "Safe" as possible, I also plan to count acceptance of any game Challenge made to me during a PP to count as a "move" also. .. (Like if I accept the Challenge then Move 1...c5 I intend to count that as if I made "2 moves", toward my 4 permitted) Other than that, I feel a lot more confident about the whole PP system now...........HOWEVER *********************************** I would stilll like to know though, if I accept a Challenge, after being in PP, will the PP days be automatically added to that game then, and at what point, anyone? ... Would it be like this: Say I've PP's for 11 days. One day into it, with 10 of PP left, I accept a Challenge for a 5 day Game. I click "yes", so now opp has made 1 move, I've yet made none. But now my Clock for that game will show 15 (and not 5) ? Then the next day I move 1...c5, so then my clock was at 14 then(?), now becomes 15 again ? Or 14 (9 days PP + 5 new days) ? HELP please !!....[:-O ******************* And any game where I moved during the 2nd day of that 10 day PP, that was already included among the PP'd games, it would then restore 9 remaining PP days + the number of "days per move" of the Time Control ? Sorry to be the Guy that Just Don't Get It, but you guys have helped a lot already. Thx Again! Craig A.C. |
| honololou 3/08/2004 14:46:01 [ report this post ] | I'm gonna cancel this one� Message: if I get a chance. board #1038759 |
| skeeterss0 3/08/2004 23:07:45 [ report this post ] | Yes I would too Honololou Message: What I did in one of my games (it wasn't postponed) is typed out the moves in the remainder of the game. It was a forced mate in two(so there wasn't much typing). The next time my opponent got on he resigned. I'm not saying all people will but I believe most will. |
| honololou 3/09/2004 07:10:56 [ report this post ] | skeeterss0� Message: good idea. thanks for the tip. |
| ccmcacollister 3/09/2004 09:21:09 [ report this post ] | I Like Skeeters Idea ... Message: And it's almost exactly like sending a Conditional/If sequence. Except then IF his opp actually DID "submit" the expected move (which he Must do Only if the Laws of Chessplay Force it ....otherwise opp might make ANY move) , then the GK system would already have Skeeters Reply to that Expected move "input-ed" by him, and would be able to immediately "out-put" it to the opp's board on Skeeter's behalf. (But the System would do NO ANALYSIS, nor have any option available to it whatsoever; except to play the Move "B" he told it to make IF, and ONLY IF, opp submitted Move-"A") Presumablly his opp would then have his available thinking time reset back up to the usual maximum Days Per Move of their particular Time Control. Also presumably Skeeters active games que/chart would still show it as being "opponents move" but would have added the moves just made onto his Board diagram, and also onto the Games-que, replacing the previous move-pair that was there. Just in case anybody that hasn't used "Conditionals" before is/was still unclear on the mechanism involved. * * * * * PS. If opp did not play the Expected move, then Computer would do nothing at all but to send Skeeter the opp's move in the normal fashion, with no differnce whatsoever. |
| perro_feo 3/09/2004 20:06:11 [ report this post ] | I Agree with the posibility of cancel Message: I dont like when a someone play when postpone. Look this game # 1214289, Iam waiting for more than 30 days. |
| coyotefan 3/09/2004 22:08:19 [ report this post ] | perro_feo Message: Most players have one or two examples of scumsuckers like that. The problem is that this is out of over 100,000 players. It truly sucks that the rules are written to the lowest of the low, instead of accepting that there are a few a$$e$ who will take advantage of every rule, and write rules that are the best for the whole. If not for this rule, I would make a few moves during my postponements, instead I make none. How is this better? |
| ccmcacollister 3/09/2004 22:41:21 [ report this post ] | Coyotefan; 2 Question, Please ? Message: Do you disagree then with the idea suggested above (EG. Furryfinbundle, Skeeter, & the FAQ ) that a player apparently get to make 4 moves during PP without being subjected to any possibility of PP Cancellation(s) ? Or just to 'Play it Safe' when you said "instead I make none" ? |
| coyotefan 3/10/2004 00:16:28 [ report this post ] | I am playing 100+ games Message: Making 4 moves is worthless. If I take a week vacation, and find access to a computer, I would like to make moves in all my games. Rules state I cannot do this without allowing people to cancel time out. This is of benefit to nobody. |
| achillesheel 3/10/2004 11:07:22 [ report this post ] | I Disagree Coyote Message: It is of benefit to everyone who wishes the right to cancel a postponement. You do not wish to maintain that right, so you assume the rule benefits no one if it does not benefit you. Likewise, you attack the rule as aimed at the lowest common denominator (aren't most penal rules aimed at the lowest common denominator?). What you really seek is a rule that assumes most people are like you, but that is not necessarily so (it is not necessarily not so, either; but I don't presume to know the answer or base my conclusions on such a presumption). As I said before, I for one would forego the ability to move during a vacation in order to keep the right to cancel games against someone who is manipulating the system. Perhaps others (many others?) agree with me. I trust at a minimum that Mike would rather each player have the option than be inundated with hundreds of messages asking for him to cancel postponements (followed by accusations that he is arbitrary and unfair in how he goes about it, etc., etc.). That consideration alone is, I think, more valuable than your prerogative to make one move in each of your games during a 7-day postponement. |
| coyotefan 3/10/2004 11:43:15 [ report this post ] | achillesheel Message: Again, as I said, there are a few scumbags who use postponements to delay losses (remember I am Mr. Resign already!), but I do believe that the number of people who do this is so small, that it is crazy to write a rule that slows down games. I do not think this rule even assists this problem. They just postpone. |
| honololou 3/10/2004 16:36:11 [ report this post ] | why encourage postponements� Message: by allowing people to "selectively" postpone their games. One consequence of not being able to move during postponements is that it is an option of "last resort" and it means that you cannot play chess at GK during that period. Remove that consequence and postponing games becomes a lot less painful. Only my opinion, but allowing people to make unlimited moves during a postponement makes no sense at all and can only result in more players delaying unpleasant endings while continuing on in their other games. |
| honololou 3/10/2004 16:45:44 [ report this post ] | I have only postponed games� Message: once and that was because of an illness and death in my family. If I knew that I could postpone my games and continue to make moves with impunity, I might have postponed several times when I faced difficult positions in games and felt that "maybe with a little more time some inspiration will strike me and I can find a brilliancy that will save me". I have resisted this temptation each and every time because I wished to continue making moves in my other games. If coyotefan has his way others like me who ordinarily would never use their postponement days will begin to ration them out throughout the year to delay the inevitable and frustrate their opponents. My word of advice to anyone who is constantly considering postponements: Play games with more days between moves. |
| ccmcacollister 3/16/2004 02:06:37 [ report this post ] | Blinded by the light ! Message: Get me a brain-bulb, in a bubble ! Because it's just occurred to me why we can make 4 moves safely when PP'd. That way we can accept a new Challenge game from someone, and make the initial 3 moves to pass beyond the point of no return for game cancellation. Thus safely enter and secure one new game during PP. Wow. It sometimes amazes me how much thought Mike has put into this site, to get so far ahead of us, or me anyway, with some of the nuances incorporated into it ... ! |
| alstirek 3/16/2004 16:35:04 [ report this post ] | why encourage more abuse? Message: if you postpone your games, then wish to make some moves, you should prove you're not 'abusing the system' by making moves in ALL of your games. otherwise, i don't blame anyone for cancelling your postponement; they're simply doing their best to reign in the abuse :) ************************************** you should ask mike to address a change in the 2 week waiting period. specifically, if a postponed player chooses to make moves in ALL of his/her postponed games, the option should exist to immediately reinstate the remaining period of postponement. ************************************** but if you choose to only make moves in SOME games, i have no sympathy for you; you are contributing to the problems that the rules exist to mitigate in the first place. either you are postponed in ALL of your games or you or not postponed at all... just delaying some games. best wishes to all |
| achillesheel 3/16/2004 18:46:01 [ report this post ] | alstirek Message: That was my suggestion above as well. The only hitch is how you could prevent a player from making just one move in one game and moving at will in all others. A player could still abuse the system and prolong games that way. I'm afraid we are stuck with an all-or-nothing proposition. I think the current system works best if that's true. Any thoughts on how to get around the problem I raise? |
| perro_feo 3/17/2004 19:54:24 [ report this post ] | I raise? Message: O yeah, I agree with you |
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